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Jul
12
The city we live in, Bellevue, is an interesting cultural melting pot. I think most people think of Seattle’s Eastside as being predominantly rich and white, but while there are certainly plenty of folks who fall under that category (what’s up, PLETHORA OF RIDICULOUS YACHTS), the neighborhoods—thanks in no small part to Microsoft, I’m sure—are actually incredibly diverse.
A while ago I started noticing how Asian and Hispanic families seem, generally speaking, to have unusually well-behaved kids. I’m particularly drawn to the sight of families walking down 156th (a super busy street), and how even very young children just … walk, like normal humans. In one direction. While staying on the sidewalk. Like, they’re not darting here and there and acting like they have unpredictable, malfunctioning propellors jammed in their tiny rear ends, and their parents aren’t chasing them or barking orders at them or guiding them or reaching out to slam an iron eagle grip on the back of their collar before they step cluelessly in front of a speeding Metro bus. They’re just WALKING. As if they were born with a little COMMON SENSE and SELF-PRESERVATION.
I could give a million more examples of how calm and non-insane these kids appear to me, but I think the gist of what I’m wondering is, are we talking about environmental differences or culture discipline philosophies or what? Why do Western kids—my own, for sure, but also most kids I see out and about—seem so much more hyper and distracted?
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I notice this and wonder about it too. I’ll be curious to see what people have to say.
I don’t want to sound culturally insensitive nor do I want to generalize about any culture in particular, but one thing that is noticeably different between Western kids (especially upper-middle class white kids) and others is that their parents don’t hit them. There isn’t a healthy dose of fear. Not that I think hitting or corporal punishment is okay, however, many cultures (including my own Portuguese upbringing), only knew to discipline with the belt.. and let me tell you, you don’t want the belt. So you stay on the damn sidewalk. The long-term effects of hitting have long been shown to be detrimental, however, discipline-wise that shit can be effective.
I don’t know what it is, but my kids are super calm compared to other kids at my sons’ schools, and I can blame or credit it on…nothing. I have no idea. Maybe it’s our skin color, but maybe it’s just how they were born. I was born and raised in the US, just like them. If I were Malcolm freaking Gladwell, I’d say it had to do with like, the genetics of Hush Puppy-wearing, subway-riding mathletes, or some other improbable grouping where he could sieve out a reason for it. I just shrug my shoulders, though.
I work in a public library in an lower/middle class neighborhood in urban Texas. This is my 13th year working in a public library. The asian and hispanic kids I see are not any calmer than the white kids I see. I’m gonna say this has more to do with class and race factors than simple race factors.
My middle class white three year old walks calmly unless he is all hopped up on sugar. And I think that is partly personality.
Being Chinese and having pretty traditional Chinese parents, I can tell you I was never allowed to act less than civilized in public. It’s like Sandra above states, I had a healthy dose of fear instilled into me at an early age.
My parents were considered “lenient” Chinese parents and my brother and I were not spanked nearly as often as some of friends but we were not allowed to run around restaurants, dart around the sidewalk or walk ahead of our parents at the mall, etc. If we did, we were almost guaranteed to have my mom grab us by the arm in a vise grip until we calmed down. If we threw a tantrum in public, we were swiftly whisked away to the car to finish our tantrum in the privacy of the car and…we were rarely given sympathy.
I don’t necessarily encourage such parenting but it worked for my parents and I think my brother and I turned out okay. I will say, my parents never spanked us anywhere other than our palms or butts. Spanking aside, my brother and I learned very early that there was an expectation of good behavior and our actions had consequences.
Oh, I should add, a lot of the Chinese parents these days are a lot “softer” on their children and it’s more common place to see hyper little Chinese kids than when I was growing up. My parents and all their friends look at these “wild” kids and shake their heads and say “too much freedom!”
I do not have a definite answer for this, but I’ve noticed the same as well in other ethnic families. I assume it’s based on their culture and enforced at home. Maybe a combination of higher expectations, spankings, parental authority? I know when we were little, we did not run around like I let my son run because it wasn’t allowed. We actually had to put our hands behind our backs and go through the store that way. I have never done this to my son, but it’s pretty genius. We didn’t have time out, we got spanked. As a culture, many of us have moved away from that and I wonder if it’s changed how our children act and react.
We also live in a Microsoft-y cultural town and I do have to say that two of the rowdiest, least controlled kids in C’s kindergarten class were Indian and Chinese (the other two troublemakers were white). So there’s that. But I have wondered about this myself while driving through my neighborhood. I wonder what role diet has to play in behavior. I wish I could say we were a non-processed food family but unfortunately, my kids like their food in handy tiny nugget form.
Interesting question. I’m a white woman raised by parents who were first and second generation Americans by way of Germany. From a young age I was expected to march up to adults, extend my hand and introduce myself or say hello or goodbye. My sisters and I were also expected to sit quietly for hours at a time while my parents visited with family. We were sitting at the table, but were to be “seen and not heard”. And we did it!
I don’t know what they did to make us behave as we were rarely spanked, but all three of us did what we were told with no arguments and no drama.
My three kids? A different story. Dinner out with my boys when they were young was a nightmare. Stores? A disaster. My kids have just never feared or, dare I say, respected me like I feared my parents and other adults.
It’s the fear. I was raised by older, OTB immigrant (on one side) parents and we were super polite kids because we were afraid of being hit. We rarely were, but it could happen. Not saying it’s right…
I agree with many comments above. I saw this a ton working in adult education. The children of refugee families behaved very differently than kids of adults who were born in our community. I realize that refugee populations may not be entirely relevant to the population you’re asking about, but watching the kids’ behavior was an interesting experience. Having worked with the parents, I think part of it was the cultural no-tolorance-for-BS (which also came with a ton of love), and the other part was that kids and adults alike had a general appreciation for things many of us take for granted. When a kid has watched his infant sibling starve in a refugee camp because mom was too malnourished to breastfeed, trust me, they eat their peas when they’re told to. And do everything else they’re told to.
I have to agree, it’s the lack of fear. While I certainly do not condone child abuse, it’s a long way from a couple of swats on a well-padded rear end to abusive beatings. I spanked my kids, and they did not publicly misbehave (they are in their 40s now, it’s a whole different generation). But I know in my own case, although I can’t really remember being spanked, I had a great fear of disappointing my elders, and so I behaved. All the time. So did almost all the other kids I knew. By way of background, I’m Caucasian, of German, Irish, Scots, English and Native American ancestry.
You simply behaved as you were expected to. You also did your homework because you were supposed to do it. We were afraid of repercussions if we didn’t, whether a spanking or just the simple disappointment of my mother if I talked back or ran amuck in the stores.
My husband is from India, doesn’t spank and doesn’t use the stroller (he thinks the stroller is stupid.) He’s all about carrying them around until they can walk, then he lets ‘em walk. Me? I am all about rolling cages – be it shopping carts or strollers. My kids are ages 4 and 5.5 – for quite awhile now, I only use the stroller for our annual Silver Dollar City Extravaganza (Yeehaw!) When my husband goes places with us, we don’t use the stroller, period.
Each kid went through the typical phase of Toddler Dashing, but quickly moved past it because they figured out I get Very, Very Scary n’ Mean when they do that.
As soon as my daughter could understand me, I let her know (and still do) before we enter a situation what my expectations of her are regarding her behavior and also her safety.
I think my expectations have always been reasonable for her age, but I do let her know I have them. And if she is too hungry, tired, etc. then I don’t put her in a situation where she actually can’t act okay.
it just has to do with different parental expectations, i think. those can be stereotypically different based on heritage, culture, religion, neighborhood, anything.
parents tend to emphasize what’s most important to them with their children. for some parents, discipline and respectfulness is a really big deal. to others, confidence and gutsy-ness is important to them, and kids totally pick up on those things. in my family, we all sang. whether or not we could sing, liked to sing, etc, we all learned to sing.
i could be wrong, but that makes the most sense to me.
I’ve never really noticed a cultural difference so much as a difference between My Kid and Every Other Kid. Mine would be the one with the propeller and no common sense. Please post about what you learn from your survey …. I’m eager to know of other Propeller Children.
footnote:
a lot of comments have touched on corporal punishment, and i can’t help but toss my two cents in.
i was spanked as a kid, and i’m fine. i don’t have a huge problem with spanking, as long as it’s rational, calm, compassionate spanking and not an angry adult-tantrum, i just want to say that right off. but from my (admittedly limited) education in human development, human behavior, early childhood education, etc, the evidence really points to negative reinforcement of any kind just not working that well. this “evidence” is all relatively current studies, so maybe in the culture of the last generation it worked better, or maybe it was just the default method of dealing with behavior and the positive results reflect the amount of effort and attention the parents put into their kids, and not the spanking itself.
i just wanted to toss this in, because it kind of changed the way i thought about discipline. i don’t have kids, but when i was a kid i didn’t really fear punishment. i saw it as the price to pay for doing what i wanted to do- like using my own allowance to buy candy. it worked better when i was very young, but overall the rewards of doing the right thing (actual rewards, or just knowing i made my parents proud of me) motivated me much more than fear of punishment.
I’m white, and for the most part my kids walk right with me, at least the youngest does. The two oldest did when they were younger too. I had several advantages though – they seem to be unusally compliant in their physical behavior (not so much their mouths, I’ve found with the 2 teenage girls) and I only had to teach one at a time since there are 5 years between 1 and 2, and 10 years between 2 and 3. I know. Way to spread ‘em out, right? When they started walking with me, they had to hold my hand, then when they wanted to walk alone, it was with complete understanding that if they misbehaved, they would be holding my hand again, this time in a way that kept them right with me. Further misbehavior and I would say it was time to go home. That usually stopped it, and if not, we went home. I don’t remember going home too many times, and it was usually due to a missed nap time melt down.
Fear of disappointing my parents, my grandparents, my family. And I am white. That;s what kept me in line though. And the be seen not heard attitude. I don’t use those on my kids, and yes, they aren’t as well behaved as I was. Sometimes I think, what did my family do to keep me so well behaved, and then I remember, and I don’t want to use disappointment as a tool. My mom comes to visit and uses it, and it pisses me off everytime, but if I tell her not to do it, then she gets very very angry with me, and starts putting out attitude worse than my kids. “Fine, you deal with it, I don’t even know why I come to visit you if this is the way you treat me, I’ll just stop coming” etc etc.
When I was reading your post, I could see where you were headed and I had a feeling a lot of people would immediately assume spanking was what was keeping kids in line.
As a white middle class kid, my sister and I were spanked and we behaved. I don’t think it left any lasting effects, but I also don’t think spanking is the way to go and it certainly doesn’t teach self-regulation.
The fact is, real discipline isn’t about punishment, it’s about consistently applying the same message and expectation until the lesson is learned.
All that said, my child is very obedient, doesn’t run in malls, sits quietly in restaurants ect and none of that was accomplished through spanking. For us, it was simply saying, “We’re going into the mall, running is not acceptable.” The message was very short and direct. If a correction needed to be issued inside the mall, then it was a stern, no nonsense-sounding, “Running isn’t acceptable” or “That’s not acceptable.”
(No “you” messages, no long boring, nagging, “I told you….blah, blah, blah, this is your last warning except it’s not really because I still have to finish my shopping blah blah blah” — just a super sharp, “That’s not acceptable”)
Anyway, I don’t think it really matters WHICH method you choose to apply when parenting, just that you are extremely (and I do mean extremely) consistent in applying it.
I don’t know that spanking is successful BECAUSE it’s spanking, so much as its successful because of how consistently it’s applied.
Screw it, I’ll bite.
It’s not the kids’ fear, it’s the parents’.
The less privilege you have, the more you have to be concerned with society’s good opinion of you.
If you’re rich and white, you’re much less likely to have people look down their nose at you when your kids are out of control.
People probably aren’t going to make snotty remarks about how Those People Can’t Control Their Kids or make assumptions about the internal structure of your family.
Other rich white people smile at your kids.
If your kids are dirty, the assumption is because they’ve been out playing in the dirt, not because you don’t care enough to wash their faces.
If their clothes don’t match, it’s because they (or you) have a quirky fashion sense, not because you’re too poor to buy matching clothes.
There are a shit ton of perks to being rich and white in this world, and like it or not, white kids start being the beneficiaries of white privilege way before they can walk.
This is such an interesting post and I’ve OFTEN wondered it myself since I’m mexican descent and my husband is scandinavian descent (white dude from illinois). I have to totally agree with Sandra. And i definitely don’t want to make generalizations either but being in a bi-racial marriage it’s often popped up and i’ve examined the same question many times and every single time I come back to the same thing… the physical discipline. not like i was beat when i was a kid but my mom spanked and she meant business. there was fear involved to a degree. when i watch my husband’s relatives (mother, father, aunts, etc)… there is a lack of that physical element and I just notice a difference in the kids and how they behave when there’s no sense of fear. I’d never want my kids to fear me, don’t get me wrong. But seriously, just a look is all it takes and my girls quiet down. but it’s only because i spank (”not out of anger” as my doctor so wisely put it to me once).. but i spank when they misbehave. It’s prevalent in our culture and i’m not ashamed to say that it’s effective and it works. just my two cents.
Race/Ethnicity is always such a sensitive topic. I hope the comments stay civil and don’t veer on the side of ignorance.
As a Latina mom who grew up middle class and very comfortable, but was educated and raised in white, affluent neighborhoods, I would say the difference has much more to do with cultural norms and values than class. What I have noticed (both as a child growing up as an ethnic minority and with my own boys and their peers now) is that Anglo parents tend to want to be their child’s “friend.” Children are seen more as “equals” versus lower in the familial hierarchy. In Latino families, the parents are at the top of the hierarchy with the children at the bottom having to answer to and comply with the parents rules and values. There is no “friendship” going on. And there is a slight element of fear instilled in the children. The children know they will be held accountable for their actions (punished, privileges taken away, etc.).
In Anglo families, I have almost witnessed the reverse. The children are at the top of the hierarchy with the parents seeming to cater to them and wanting to please them and fulfill their every whim or need in this sort of elaborate dance to keep the kids “happy” at all times. It appears the kids have the control. The parents also seem more wishy washy to me. I get the feeling that “no” doesn’t always mean “no,” but “maybe” if you push hard enough.
These are obviously just gross generalizations, however. I think it just comes down to different sensibilities when it comes to disciplining/parenting styles. But we all know there are little assholes across all ethnicities and socio-economic stratas. ;)
Are your neighbors immigrants? My guess is there is something special about the kind of people who start and successfully complete the immigration process, that they are just the kind of people to have no nonsense kids. I suspect their homelands are full of kids acting afool, and that their future American grandchildren will be all wild Stateside.
I gues I should say the future grandkids COULD be wild, but won’t necessarily. I think there are tons of white families with well behaved kids too, but that we see that behavior with a range of other behavior from other white kids so it just doesn’t stick out the way it might with immigrants where it seems like the norm.
Ditto Akeeyu. My kids are disheveled, mismatched, and often decorated with peanut butter, and everyone seems to think they’re adorable. People don’t have such positive reactions to equally disheveled, grimy and mismatched brown-skinned children in our mostly brown-skinned city. And if I had brown skin, I suspect I’d be acutely aware of that, and more insistent about brushing my daughter’s hair before we left the house.
I can’t believe you posted this question, perfect timing. We just drove home from Bethesda, Maryland. We were at The National Institutes of Health having my (just turned) four year old evaluated for ADHD. As I turned the corner from the very busy main street to the side street that takes us to our house I noticed a young Latina woman standing at a bus stop with her two young boys. Those boys were both easily under four yrs old, they were JUST STANDING THERE. Not jumping around like lemurs, not near the street, not tripping all over one another, not doing anything dangerous. They were just standing there with their mom. I immediately thought to myself, “HA HA HA, my kids would have pushed one another into the street & been hit by a bus within seconds of standing on that busy corner bus stop.” I really admired how well behaved those boys were, but I have no idea how or why they behaved that way.
I totally agree it’s cultural, but not sure what aspect of the cultures hone that behavior. Americans of all colors and backgrounds seems to allow their kids to behave like less civilized people, it’s not just white Americans, it’s also Hispanics, Asians, Africans American… once you get past that 1st and 2nd generation. My mom & her sisters are from Germany. My Oma whooped their asses big time. Old world Europeans are just as good (or bad depending how you look at it) at instilling fear & demanding respect as Asians & Hispanics. I’m not going to whoop any asses in my house just o get my kids to walk behind me like little ducklings. My son was given an ADHD diagnosis today by the experts at NIH so I know why he can’t stand still, why he’s impulsive, why he doesn’t function like the boys I saw at the bus stop. I know that’s not the case for most children out there, but in my house it is for at least one of my sons.
I also see a few of my working parent friends have daycare guilt. I see many parents going over board with spoiling their children out of guilt that they work long hours and don’t have the time they’d like to spend with their children. To make up for it they buy them toys and allow bad behavior. It’s not the case for everyone but it is for some.
I’m white, I was never spanked, I always listened and was never hyper. I’m also a female. Is it a girl vs boy issue?
My oldest is half Brazilian. I don’t judge people based on their skin color or wealth. I wasn’t raised that way and I am not raising my children that way. I touched on the Latina mom at the bus stop because Linda posted this and it was so fresh in my mind that those boys were so well behaved. I have to agree with the poster who said their were little assholes across all ethnicities and socio economic levels – she was spot on!
What an interesting topic! I don’t have kids of my own, but when we were kids my mother was very clear about what we were and were not expected to do. I cry Amen to two of the above comments in particular:
Kristin: “my brother and I learned very early that there was an expectation of good behavior and our actions had consequences.”
Jessica: “We actually had to put our hands behind our backs and go through the store that way.”
i can’t say much about how these cultural differences exist in north america, but while i was in china i noticed that kids there don’t fuss. at all, no matter how young. as soon as i noticed it, i watched for it. there was no visible disciplining because there was no need for it. i have no idea what happens behind closed doors but in public they are all angels. ALL OF THEM.
I’m fascinated reading these comments. I’ll admit when reading the post my mind went straight to corporal punishment. I’m enjoying reading the theories of other possible explanations.
At the end of the day, I’m sure there are so many contributing factors its impossible to define them all and follow the “formula” to get your kid to behave. Which is really a shame, because my two-year-old is one of those kids who runs every which way except straight down the sidewalk.
We were always well behaved because my mom would whack us if we got out of line. There was this unholy dose of fear. And God help you if you got into trouble for misbehaving while you were out in public with Mom because then Dad found out and we got it double from him.
My father is German, my mother Native American, and we were brought up in a really strict household where one didn’t even think about behaving in an uncivilized manner.
We don’t hit our son, but we raised him firmly if that makes sense. He doesn’t get out of line in public either.
PS – the other thing I forgot to add to this, is that my parents will tell you that they were NOT our friends. They were OUR parents. They didn’t care what other families did, they were focused on our family and what we did. And we have carried that forward with our child, we aren’t our son’s friend we are his Mom and Dad.
Basically my mom and dad didn’t care if they pissed us off or hurt our feelings:)
I am in absolute, 100%, perfect agreement with Anonymous (post at 4:17pm). Brilliantly stated.
I also agree that this topic is fascinating!
I’m as white as can be, and my three sisters and I were very well-behaved children. My parents spanked us, and good lord did we fear our father because of it. I do spank, not often though (its just not effective for us) and my kids are still hooligans at times. I think I’m pretty strict and make my expectations clear, so I don’t know what the answer is here. All kids are different I guess.
Great post. I have thought about this a lot recently now that I am a Mom for the first time. My son is only 1 so how to keep him in line has not yet been an issue but I know its coming soon.
I am/was raised in a middle-class white neighborhood with parents that used spanking. It was highly effective and RARELY did they have to actually spank us. One spanking and we knew they were serious and from there the threat was usually enough. Those few times that we did get spanked it was not abusive or out-of-control. No bruises were left. It really did not even hurt that much, it was just unpleasant. And boy did we ever deserve it when it got to that point.
We always behaved in public and I think it was a combo of having respect and knowing it would be the end of our little worlds if we acted crazy in pubilc. I have often thought about how we were kept in line and most of it was just the knowledge that there would be consequences for our actions that we would not like. But at the same time its not like our parents went around threatening us all the time. HOW did we know? I am not sure. Maybe just that look on their face that conveyed “you stop now or ELSE” without them having to say anything.
I know that now a lot of studies have shown spanking not to be effective and even damaging in some cases so that concerns me. But at the same time I do not feel we were harmed by our spanking experiences as kids. I think maybe there are different kinds of spanking and different reasons and that is what makes the difference. Even while being spanked we knew our parents loved us unconditionally. That may seem strange to some but somehow there was not any confusion between our parents love and the anger that seemingly would be conveyed through spanking. The scary thing is I dont really know how my parents accomplished that. It makes sense to me that it could confuse a child to be hit but it was NEVER confusing or an issue for us. So I wonder what to do with my son when the time comes. I know for me it worked but I would hate to do it wrong with my son and have him be confused or hurt by it. So for now I am still undecided. Perhaps I will get lucky and he will never call my bluff (HAHAHAHA! Yeah right…).
Ok, I read this and thought about how my two boys do both. I mean, sometimes they are perfectly capable of walking and behaving like small humans and sometimes they act like cracked out blind badgers with butts full of angry bees. And then I thought, “Huh, well they are HALF Asian.”
Not helpful. But kinda funny.
This is an AMAZING discussion.
My kids were raised in the Ci-tay – so they know how to walk or get thrown into lockdown (I kid, I kid) sorta.
But – now I have a girl after 2 nutter boys, and let.me.tell.you – she walks down the street no problem.
I’m white, and grew up working class (not even *close* to middle class) in Spanaway, Washington – a pretty depressed area known for it’s meth use, trailer parks, and geographically-separated military families.
Most of the kids I grew up around (not all, but most) were incredibly well behaved in retrospect.
For myself and my brother we knew that wilding out resulted in an ass-whooping/guilt trip lecture/removal of later sweet treats. Conversely, we also knew that being “good” would result in treats or other extra privileges such as more TV time.
I have distinct memories of both/either of my parents reminding us before entering a grocery store or whatever what was at stake both good and bad. We’d be trembling with excitement by the time we got to the checkout line because we knew we had been good and were on the verge of finding out what awesome prize we had one.
Was it bribing and fear-based tactics? YES. Did it work? Beautifully.
I am a white woman married to an American Hispanic. We totally agree on parenting. Hard-asses is what we are.You do what you are told or there will be problems. You loose privileges.
My dad was the enforcer in our home and you didn’t want him getting a hold of you when he was mad or sitting would be out of the question for awhile.
I have spanked my kids rarely but they did get a spanking if they were young and required one. By 5 they had it figured out.
We as parents are not these young peoples friends!!!!!!!
We are their teachers, their mentors, the only people in this world who will throw them a life line if needed,give our lives for them.
Unlike you my children are older now. I have a daughter (23) who is serving our country, did a full deployment in Iraq two years ago, another daughter (20) that is in college full time and working full time.
I also have a Son (11) with adhd who gets straight A’s and MOST teacher’s love. He is generous, loving, and would hand you the world if he could. He hold doors for people an says please and thank you.
They are not robots….but young people that know right from wrong. Money wasn’t the teacher…we were.
Very interesting topic and comments!
I am not sure if discipline is a cultural/ethnic thing. I’m nearly 50 and 1/2 white 1/2 hispanic, though I was raised as “white bread” as can be, as an only child by my single mom.
I was raised w/ consistent discipline; spanking as well as other consequences like loss of privileges or possessions (toys) depending on the circumstances and my age. The punishment always fit the crime.
My mom’s style was to tell me what was expected of me (behavior/manners) beforehand and if I misbehaved I would get a warning, and with continued misbehavior (not often!) I was given a punishment. She rarely disciplined me in public – rather she would remove me from the scene (ladies bathroom or outside).
But the main thing was that she rarely issued (empty) threats. If she said “If you misbehave, I will …” and if I misbehaved, I would get … whatever the punishment was. She always followed through, as I KNEW she would. There was one time when she actually left her nearly-full shopping cart at the front of the store (with a clerk’s knowledge) and took me home without paying for said groceries. Yes, she was pretty pissed about it, and believe me, it only happened once!
Is that fear? I don’t remember being fearful, but I DO remember knowing that if I got out of line, I was going to reap the consequences of that misbehavior. To me, it was more about cause and effect, as well as respect.
I tried my best to raise both my kids that way and for the most part, I think it worked. My kids (both now in their mid-twenties) were (and are) good kids, and they BOTH have said to me “Y’know, as much as we hated the “beatings” (haha, jokers!) we now appreciate that you disciplined us, as we both see the results of inconsistent/nonexistent discipline in today’s world.” (And no, I didn’t pay them to say that!)
I know there are those who are adamantly against any form of physical punishment, choosing to use their words instead. If that style works, GREAT! More power to them! I think everyone has to find their own method.
But no matter their style, consistency is the key. Grounding your kid for something on Monday, then saying “Oh Johnny/Susie…stop doing that this minute” as they off-handedly wave their fingers in the general direction of their little darling as they text a mile a minute on their phones, while Johnny/Susie keeps trying to stuff the dog into the toilet on Tuesday…? Well, that’s just sending the kid mixed messages and s/he’ll never figure out what the parent wants.
I am eager to read everyone else’s comments on this discussion. Thanks for a great conversation!
I set expectations for my daughter every time I get her out of the car seat. “You need to hold my hand and walk with me in the parking lot, street, shop, restaurant, etc.”
If she doesn’t, there’s a verbal reprimand that quick and direct.I have zero issue with disciplining a child in public. She knows it, and doesn’t push the boundaries. Part of that is that she knows I’m serious, and part of is it her personality. I’ve never laid a hand on her, and I am the biggest positive reinforcement machine on the planet. That’s my parenting style.
I will also say, in our neighborhood (which is very diverse), there are hooligans of all races and creeds. I really believe it’s in the parenting. Which may be harsh, but true.
I’m white, my husband’s white, we’re jillionth-generation Americans, middle-class, rural. Our kids behaved pretty much like the kids you describe, although there were a few times in stores when they would drive me bananas when they were small. I agree with Anonymous above, to a large extent, about the idea of being parents as opposed to buddies, about Mom and Dad being the ones in charge and the kids at MUCH lower hierarchical level. (Now that they’re older and their behavioral foundations are well-laid, there’s a lot more friendship involved, but they STILL know that Mom and Dad make the rules and that they are expected to obey, and most especially that our lives do not revolve around their desires and whims.)
I also agree (HUGELY) about the consistent discipline. When we took our children places, they knew how to behave, either because it was a situation they’d been in often (grocery store) or because we explicitly told/reminded them on the way in (”This is a nice restaurant. People come here and pay a lot of money to enjoy their meals in peace. You WILL NOT be the children who ruin that for them.”). They had had a foundation laid since toddlerhood: If you misbehave, there are consequences. Whether the misbehaving is in the form of smacking your sibling or having a tantrum, or even (pertinent here) engaging in behavior that was OK at home but not in, say, a restaurant or the market (yelling, running, whatever), the pre-discussed consequences followed the behavior like clockwork, every time. Which works out beautifully, because the kids quickly learned to behave, and the consequences hardly ever had to happen.
Granted: Our kids were further apart in age than yours (3 1/2 years between them). Handling two who are closer in age is harder not only logistically but also because they are more likely to rile each other up. But still, I do think that the difference, whether tied to culture or not (Caucasians are a minority in most of the cities we go to, and the non-Caucasian kids are pretty much indistinguishable from the Caucasian ones in terms of rowdiness in public, as far as I can tell) is in the family hierarchy and consistent, reasonable discipline.
Want to clarify that hierarchy or not, our kids were raised with a TON of affection. TONS. CONSTANT affection: physical, verbal, quantity time, quality time… our goal was that even when they were in trouble they would never doubt that they were loved. But it was parent-child affection, not you’re-my-buddy or subservient-parent-to-child-master affection.
I dunno. I didn’t read through all the comments; but since having a kid, I see rambunctious little not-listening, booger-eating, tantrum-throwing, misbehaving, whiny squealy pesky little shits EVERYWHERE.
Thank God. Makes my kid seem almost normal by comparison. =)
This might be a social class issue over a cultural one. If you spend a lot of time walking from Point A to Point B because you don’t have a car or gas is too expensive, it is not as exciting so you don’t go as crazy. Or maybe they just walk more in general. Or get more exercise/time outside in general.
Who knows?
My kid and I spend a ton of time walking together in the forest etc. and she runs about like a sprite, but in the city she is very sensible and sticks with me, but then she is a very cautious person about cars.
What a great discussion! I agree with all of the posters who mention that we are not are kids “friends”. We are their parents. As an older Caucasian parent to a young Asian child, people comment constantly on how well behaved my kid is. What follows the compliment is usually something along the lines of “asian kids are just naturally better behaved”.
Um…no. She is a quiet, thoughtful kid by nature, but she’s also 5 and is subject to all of the crazy that kids that age get. As parents we discipline clearly and consistently. We’re very big on “if you do A, B will happen”. And it’s all about the follow through. We have her repeat the A+B thing and she’ll almost always follow that up with a “and Mommy/Daddy is not kidding”. It’s hard not to laugh for that one… but, we’ve taken our food to go, left stores and gatherings all because we set the rules and the rules weren’t followed.
Huge props to the poster who mentioned that American culture seems to revolve around the children and other cultures do not. Between that and the idea that we must not damage our kids “self-esteem” I think we’ve created the “entitlitis” that we’re faced with now. I think that it’s less about money and more about the balloon-headed kids who have been told their whole lives that they’re “special” and that “everybody wins”.
Corporal punishment? Has it’s place. I remember being interviewed by a social worker before adopting my daughter. She asked me about spanking and Himself went white. I’m a crappy liar and so I was honest, I will spank my child ( I do and I have) especially when the offending behavior is dangerous to her. Pull away from me on a busy street or in a parking lot? Qualifies. Wander away from me or the cart in the store? Qualifies.
A final word on diet. A poster mentioned upthread that differences in diets may account for differences in behaviors. I believe that whole heartedly. The reality of the American diet is that most kids are being fed a steady stream of simple carbs and sugar. We can’t expect our children to behave while we constantly fill them with the equivilant of rocket fuel.
The psych course I just finished placed a lot of emphasis on the differences between collectivistic (most Eastern) and individualistic (European & American) cultures. Studies show kids raised in collectivistic cultures tend to be more aware of how their behavior reflects on their family and community. Psychologically and generally speaking, they seem to have less need to test and push and assert their independence in various nerve-wracking and obnoxious ways.
My 5 yr old boy is a MANIAC at home, bouncing off the furniture, being too loud, too mouthy, too demanding, and too rough with the baby. We want to tear our hair out from dealing with his behavior so often.
However, he has never darted away from me in a parking lot, nor ever had a tantrum in a store, and generally sits well in a restaurant. Not from fear– because he has never acted out in public, so has never gotten spanked in a bathroom somewhere, but because for some reason, he just acts pretty well in public.
One of those head-scratching things i guess.
I actually have to agree with Antropologa and wonder if it has more to do with the circumstances than the discipline. Kids who rely on walking more (or taking the bus, etc.) just don’t get as excited and manic about it as kids who rely more on being driven places. The walk itself isn’t the point, which it sometimes is for more car-reliant people, so the faster and more directly you walk somewhere, the sooner you get to the goal.
It probably a little bit of a lot of the things mentioned here, non-white people face greater censure if their children act out of control; cultural norms where spanking is more acceptable; practice (if you’re walking on the street all the time you know the expectations); different family structures where parents are seen as the top of a hierarchy; and so on.
I had a similar experience recently when I saw a blind woman with three young children that looked to be all under the age of five, calmly waiting for the bus. What the hell am I doing wrong that a BLIND woman can control three very young children on a busy street and yet I can’t control my two feral beasts in my own home?
And also, I’ve had several people comment on how well-behaved my children are when we’re out and about, to my shock and amazement. I think we have a tendency to remember when our kids are acting out and forget when other people’s kids do the same.
I really have to agree with posters who have said the absolute KEY is consistency. Growing up, when my mom said “Stop that or else…” she MEANT it and we got the punishment she had stated 100% of the time. One time she had to drag my sister out of a mall while she shrieked that she was starving to death at a whole food court full of people. Was it totally embarassing? Yes. Did she act out again at the mall? No. So yes, that one time was horrible but it resulted in hundreds of pleasant and fun trips to the mall. I see a lot of parents now and to me it seems like they don’t always want to have to put down what they are doing/not enjoy their own meal/etc. I get that having children is exhausting but if you want to have a nice quiet meal at a restaurant then it’s probably a night for a babysitter. My mom says that she never tried to “set us up to fail.” So, she didn’t make us go out to dinner if we were tired. She let us play outside for long stretches if we were going to be subjected to a long dinner party that night where we had to behave. We had the rules explained to us, typically TWICE, once in the house before we left, and once in the car as we arrived (and as we got older we were expected to repeat back what was said to us in the house).
All that being said, sometimes there was something she had to do, and we had to behave whether we liked it or not. We were NEVER spanked (with the exception of ONE tiny slap to my hand because I kept trying to put my fingers in an electrical socket). I think it’s what’s BEHIND the typical spanking that is important, and that is the “I’m not fucking around here, you WILL do as I say” attitude, as well as probably a consistent rule for using it (i.e., if the situation is particularly dangerous and you misbehave, IMMEDIATE spanking with no warning).
Kinda sad to me. While the parents are lucky to avoid some of the chaos, I think their calm behavior is sometimes because the kids are being forced to grow up too fast. Help out with the family, watch their siblings, do certain forms of work, etc. They SHOULD be bouncing around, being kids.
I live in France and you rarely see (white) French kids as out of control and crazy as I see kids here in the States. Attitudes towards what is considered acceptable behavior are so different. You rarely hear things like ‘Oh, its ok. He/she is too little to know better.’ Its more like the opposite- why are you allowing your infant/toddler/small child to be so disruptive??!! I feel like Americans, especially upper middle class families, consider any and all behavior acceptable. They’re just kids, after all! You have to understand and accept it! Frankly, I find this a bunch of nonsense. Obviously if you don’t teach your kids manners til they are teenagers and let them know that it is expected, they aren’t going to have any manners or sense of appropriate behavior. My impression is that if you don’t start immediately letting your children know what is expected, you never win the battle. I have two kids, ages 2 and 6, and their biggest fear is the timeout corner, not a spanking but they get into line fast if they see me counting to three, no matter where we are because they know they will catch hell if they don’t. I suppose, also, that they have been surrounded by other kids who are expected to behave so it seems normal.
Maybe it has to do with expectations. I remember my mom saying how my brother and I always followed her like little ducklings and she never had to worry about where we were or what she was doing. I think it’s b/c it was the behavior that she expected from us. She never would have expected us to do act crazy, and she would’ve been disappointed if we had. I don’t remember much, as I was little, but I do know that I was very attached to her and never had any desire to leave her side or lose track of her. So . . . expectations and nurturing?
I wholeheartedly agree with Anne, who was in turn endorsing Anonymous at 4:17 PM.
Very, very well done, and I am also in total agreement.
“Anne on July 12th, 2011 6:15 pm
I am in absolute, 100%, perfect agreement with Anonymous (post at 4:17pm). Brilliantly stated.”
My son is one of the only Caucasian kids in his preschool class, with a wide variety of other races/ethnicities represented throughout the rest of the kids. I mean, a serious wide variety, this is Southern California. And I won’t say which kids are the least well behaved but I will say that it is not all the white ones. I think it depends on *so* many more factors than race. My white son is well-mannered and respectful. He is rambunctious and energetic too, but he listens when he knows it is important. And we’ve never laid a hand on his rear end. I think it depends on the kid, the parents, the environment, and 100 other things. Race seems very very low on that list to me.
I’ve only read a few of the comments, but I’ll echo what others have said about hitting. Child of immigrant parents here, and my brothers and I were all hit when we were kids. (I won’t say spanked – let’s call it what it is.) As a result, we were extraordinarily well-behaved. However, I now have two kids and I will NOT be hitting them. Ever. I’d rather have them ill-behaved than well-behaved because they’re scared I’m going to hurt them.
I don’t know why this is, but I know THAT it is. When I was in Japan several years ago, I noticed that the children there were drastically and obviously different. More calm, more… composed? If children can be composed? My friend there was coming back to the states after being stationed in Yokokuska for 7 years, and she was very concerned about her daugher- who had been born in Japan and had only been home to the states twice- being able to understand that at home, you can’t run around or someone will take you. You can’t go away from Momma because if I can’t see you, you might not be safe. Whereas in Japan, you see small children without parental escort a lot. On trains, in crowded stations, walking down the streets… Just alone. They never look concerned or lost or scared – it’s just common place. I don’t know if it’s because there’s less violent crime (There is- no guns allowed in Japan. Lots of drugs, but no guns,) or if the children are just more capable (They seem to be. Totally well behaved, to a one, they seemed to be.) but… anyway. That’s how it was there. In the states, you’d NEVER see a 6 year-old walking unattended in a city full of busy traffic and strangers… I don’t know why it’s so different.
It’s all about social hierarchy. In families where the adults clearly outrank the kids, the kids obey. We are socially almost the same as apes. When we have a consistant hierarchical structure we all behave better (adults and children). It’s not about spanking, spanking is just a tool of some parents who also happen to have authority. There are PLENTY of parents who spank who have no authority whatsoever and whose kids run amok. Authoritative parents who spank could just as easily do time-outs, or push-ups, or writing-lines, or corporal embroidery. It is their consistancy in word and deed coupled with unflagging expectations that gets results.
Most 2nd+ generation American parents of school aged children were raised with the myth of self-esteem, the fabricated notion that it is important that kids feel good about themselves whether or not they have done anything to feel good about. That has completely screwed those parents ability to be authoritative disciplinarians. I live between two in-home day cares in a neighborhood with two elementary schools, a middle school and a high school. I work for an organization that administers all the early childhood education programs in the county. I see hundreds of kids a week. I can tell a mile away who the discipline cases are by how the parents defer to them. “Can mommy go to the store before we go home?” “You can have an ice cream when we get home if you get in the car” “Please don’t run, please walk, walk please, please come back here, GET BACK HERE.” All the things parents say when their kids are the boss of them. If they would just consistantly say in a no-nonsense voice, “That behavior is unacceptable” and then follow through with consistant discipline their kids would fall in line.
I’m Indian, and I stay in India. And I can tell you we see plenty of indisciplined kids here as well, especially nowadays. If you ask me, I’d say it’s a direct consequence of the “let’s be friends” approach that simply doesn’t work. I’m just about one generation older from the kids now (I’m 23), and while I rarely got spanked, we had rules that we were expected to follow. My parents made the rules, set the boundaries, and there was no mistaking who was in charge. It worked pretty well!
But then again, I’ve always been a quiet, bookish girl, and I grew up with two sisters. It might be a gender issue as well. I wouldn’t know.
I;m gonna say it’s a class thing… and my reasoning is that we live up in Mount Vernon (WA) and we have a large migrant population whose children are just as ill-behaved as mine, perhaps more so. Their parents typically work 12 hours a day in the fields in season and I don’t think their children get any discipline during that time and probably not at home, either. However, the culture is also such that these kids and their parents are rarely walking on the sidewalk downtown – they largely stick to the neighborhood of low income housing. And I do hope that none of this sounds racially insensitive, it is merely the truth. These jobs aren’t family-wage jobs, the parents speak Spanish and the kids speak English, and it’s honestly no wonder to me at all why we have a gang problem.
But hey! Come visit our area sometime for the lovely hiking and biking and tulips and produce and all that… worth the 60 minute drive from Bellevue.
You know, when I read this my first thought was the discipline issue because my mom was strict and there was no fooling around, she would spank or take away privileges and that was it. Of course I was an only child so she had all the time in the world to climb up my ass so to speak so I was well behaved in public.
Then I read Akeeyu’s comment and I realized I hadn’t even considered the other aspect of social pressure on non-whites to be cleaner, better behaved, etc.
Considering both aspects, I think it is societal norms, consistent discipline, and parental expectation that make these things happen. My mom said to me approximately 1M times during my childhood that she wasn’t my friend, she’s my parent. It used to piss me off, then I found myself saying the same thing to my son.
My this is a disjointed comment – sorry!
And oh, since I’ve finally delurked after more than a year of reading you, I might as well add this before I disappear into lurker territory again: I LOVE your blog! :)
“Children are wonderful but they are not the center of the universe. The sooner their parents make them understand that, the better off we all will be.” From the CNN article “Permissive parents: curb your brats”. Loved the article. Nodded along to every word. http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/05/granderson.bratty.kids
I also envy the parents of the well behaved kids, but I think (particularly in Bellevue?) there are also some other forces at work: Nowadays many mothers work. Full time. I drop off both of my kids for almost 10 hours every day and I feel guilty at the end of the day. The kids seem to listen fine to their teachers, but not to me. I can’t keep up the discipline when I “abandoned” them all day long.
Also, both of my husband and I grew up with a little too much discipline in their life. While most of the commenters state that they turned out ok, I can probably say the same thing. However, I don’t wish my childhood of fear on anyone, even though it did not involve capital punishment. My stepfather somehow instilled terror in me and I really, really don’t want my kids to ever have to experience anything like that. I am afraid that they may be afraid of me. Our generation seems to be the first one to not accept this kind of upbringing. Don’t get me wrong, respect is a wonderful thing and I had it for my grandparents, but I am talking about plain fear. However, doing it different is not that easy. We have no role models. Only parenting theories which are much harder to follow. Therefore many of us just overdo it in the other direction which leads to undisciplined behavior.
Btw, as annoying as it is, I still think thaty this will have no long term harm. The “spoiled” kids that I grew up turned mostly into very pleasant adults. And they don’t seem to carry around all this emotional baggage.
Interesting question. Some of the responses did mention spanking. I wonder if that has something to do with it. . .
People in other countries generally do not MTOB. If kids act up in France, you will get the hairy eyeball from someone.
I also agree with some of the others, my dad was a total hardass. He is my father and not my friend.
My sister and I were both incredibly well-behaved (white) kids, and everyone always commented on it. I have to echo the sentiments in a lot of the comments: I behaved well because my parents would simply have ended me otherwise. My dad only had to spank me once, ever, when I was maybe three, and he not only did it IMMEDIATELY, but hard enough to rattle my teeth while hanging onto one of my upper arms so I didn’t faceplant.
After that, I was like, “Oh, do what you say? That’s how it works? I see. Right then!”
I have no idea whether that’s a terrible thing or not (my dad still seems cool to me?), and if psychologists say spanking is a bad idea then it probably makes sense to believe them, but dude, you wouldn’t have ever caught me kicking the back of an airplane seat when I was four, I can tell you that.
Expectations. Role modeling.
Our kids have always been “street-able”, (i.e., we have been confident in taking them out with us, wherever.)
Yes: there have been a few circumstances of civil unrest: hauling one kid or another out of the church pew with a hand clapped over their howling mouths (it only takes once, trust me.), putting one’s face into the child’s face to explain that one does not make loud noises in a hotel room…
And the very best: a generations-old practice of making a game of whispering. I kid you not: – if you play with your 18-month old, holding your finger to your lips and whisper “Whisper, whisper, whisper…”, your child will get in the game. And then, in the clinch of a christening or a wedding or a funeral, your kid will get it: whisper, whisper, whisper…
I read a few comments but I wanted to speak my thoughts without others’ influence on discipline or being “culturally insensitive”. I am half Asian. I look Spanish or white. You’d be surprised, a lot of people around FL think Spanish people are loud.
About behavior. In my opinion, I think there are a lot of rules as to what is socially accepted. Now, to say Asians are well-behaved as children, it’s interesting because some of these things our society find as personality flaws later in life-too quiet, not assertive. I’ve always had a problem because I felt I never acted “white” enough. More outgoing, but I find a lot of it is just assimilating. Deviating from the norm makes life difficult. I hope no one takes offense to this-it’s a cultural topic so I’m speaking in those terms. I hope there is non-judgmental insight to this. As far as behavior-I bet many have said this, but a lot of children’s behavior comes from the parents reaction. I think spanking can cause more discord, problems. I think there are a lot of factors besides spanking or parents who blur their parental boundaries (being a friend) in this-diet, sleep, family dynamics, patience, discipline, parents’ reactions/actions. Have you lessened your reactions toward them? About the anxiety as well. Does it help? I would like toknow since I have two kids.
Anyone who complains about a migrant/gang problem: but you still get strawberries at Walmart for fifty cents. But listen, it is a cultural insensitive thing to keep minorities down. They wouldn’t walk somewhere they’d probably stick out or have money to spend on $7.99 agave nectar or $50 bottle of wine. As far as behavior, I found it funny watching a bunch of blond Candice’s drunk and driving downtown Santa Barbara being loud and obnoxious-is that how we should all act?but that is the norm. Some parts of California, there is a definite disappearance of the middle class. But as far as being classy or in a gang-lack of education and break down of the home are reasons. And that does not discriminate. To say otherwise is culturally insensitive, which is a nice way of saying you just don’t know.
When my kids misbehave it’s typically because I’ve been inconsistent. It’s also relative to their temperament. Oldest girl will throw a fit -doesn’t matter to her who is watching, doesn’t matter where she is, doesn’t matter how many times we’ve gone over what is expected and what the consequences will be. She will absolutely pitch a fit if she feels the need to. Middle girl has never had a public outburst – minus the few expected ones in her toddler years. The feeling that people will see her lose control is much more effective than Mommy might spank. Our youngest daughter falls somewhere in between. The older she gets, the more in control of herself she becomes. BUT if I’m inconsistent, the negative behavior increases because “no” doesn’t always mean “no.”
This is such a great thread. I’m wondering if anyone can contribute how they handle being out in public with another family and your kids start acting up. Or the other family’s kids are acting up and you aren’t allowing your kid to do the same thing but you are trying to keep the peace? What if you carpooled there? Or have planned a day trip with them? I ask because I’ve been in this situation with friends and it’s awkward. I feel like I’m willing to put up with a lot less spazzy behavior that effects other people in public than some of my friends who have kids. So when we plan activities that are a distance from home and kids are acting up you can’t always say “That’s it we’re going home” because A) You’ve caravanned/ carpooled to the destination (B) Your friend doesn’t see it’s a problem and isn’t doing anything to have her kids cool it.
I am not implying that my children are never the instigators. I don’t view them as perfect angels. However, it seems a lot of my friends are of the opinion that this is how kids act. I disagree, I believe my kids are old enough now to behave in a way that isn’t rude or disrespectful to the people around us. There is nothing cute about a kid acting out in public.
Okay, I’m rambling but I hope you and the other readers/commentators have some suggestions. I’m really a a loss as to how to handle this specific type of situation. Thank you!
I grew up with the fear of the stick. Today’s kids don’t fear the stick because it’s not PC to do so. I suspect kids from other cultures still fear the stick!
PS: The stick was was varnished (I say mom varnished it to preserve and strengthen, but Mom says no – I just stirred varnish with it – must have dropped the entire thing into the can once…)
I’m surprised by how many of your readers think Asians are hardcore spankers and hitters! My parents never laid a finger on me and I am not unusual for my generation.
The biggest difference with a lot of these immigrant families (I’m from one myself) is that they take their children everywhere, from a very young age, so there are simply more opportunities to reinforce good behavior. Don’t worry, I don’t mean they’re out at Le Cirque ruining everyone’s dinner, but given the fact that they live around the world from their families and often work for global MNCs, they’re sort of put in the position of having to cart their children through airports, hotels and restaurants from a very very young age. My sister and I flew for the first time internationally when our age could be measured in months-because we had to. We were moving. Which we did time and again because my father works for one of the biggest global companies in the world.
The second issue is that there are simply more authority figures in these cultures, and there’s a strong cultural trend to turn everyone older into an authority figure. Ergo when you are out and about, you kind of get the sense that your parents would side with the adults, not you.
Finally, there might be a bit of confirmation bias going on, like when I get on an airplane and my stomach drops when I see a baby. It’s not that I hate babies and I feel overwhelmingly sorry for the parents because I know they can see it on all our faces, and I feel doubly guilty because I was a airplane commuter tot myself-it’s that I’ve been on 2 flights with unruly children who made everyone’s lives miserable, so those impressions stand out in my mind. I have to actively think about all the other flights I’ve taken with completely unremarkable babies who do nothing with sleep. Which is to say that I see just as many rotten bratty Asians as I do screechy American kids and I see just as many polite American children as I do Asians. However, I think people have an easier time controlling a girl-girl pair or a girl-boy pair. When it’s boy-boy it often looks like a tornado regardless of culture.
“When it’s boy-boy it often looks like a tornado regardless of culture.” That made me guffaw out loud, because it’s so true!
And to be fair, my experience as a girl-girl pair is that there’s a lot more hissy mini-spats, so take your pic of wild-eyed exuberance or glinty malice. Isn’t everyone pulling their car off to the side of the road and threatening to make the little monsters walk it the rest of the way? I know my Asian ‘rents did.
Also wanted to clarify and say that you don’t necessarily have to be hopping a plane to Brazil like we were (because my father was on extended assignment there) to have kids who shut it in an airport-but I get the impression that if you’re not in that position where you just suck it up and reinforce time and again out of necessity (until it becomes habit for the kids), a meltdown in a public space creates so much stress and shame for parents here that they put off doing it again for a while.
I think it’s dangerous to come to wide-sweeping conclusions about race, ethnicity, class and/or culture (or anything, really) based on such little anecdotal evidence.
akeeyu, yes. Nail on the head. And, I know I’m going to sound over sensitive, but something about (mostly) white people commenting on the behavior of families of color squicks me out. Perhaps you notice them more because they are different. I’d bet if you looked around you’d see lots of white kids who are also well behaved.
Far too much overgeneralization, both in the post and in the comments.
You might see a family of color walking down your street with well behaved kids, but you can’t assume what level of cultural assimilation there is. I’ve seen kids from all cultures behave well, behave badly – and I’m also not going to generalize as many people here have that its the method of parenting. Look, I’ve got kids who are ADHD and bipolar and my son suffers from sensory processing disorder. Being out in public can be terribly difficult for him, and add in any other factors like hungry, tired, or (like yesterday) his dad didn’t give him medication before he dropped him off with me, and you have a recipe for terrible public behavior. And yet this is the same kid who sat quiety and without whining through an hour and a half catholic wedding complete with mass last weekend – as did his sister. I hate having my parenting skills judged by people who see my children act out in a public place and simply assume that I don’t discipline them.
This just happened and I thought it might be relevant to some of the comments already posted. An acquaintance of mine has promised her son (now 10 years old) that she will never, ever make him do something he does not want to do. She wants him to be HAPPY. So the little shit is doing whatever he wants, acting like a brat and driving the rest of us nuts while she stands aside wringing her hands. Today she actually asked me and a few other adults if we could please talk to the little darling to convince him to do a certain something – doesn’t matter what it is, really – because he doesn’t want to do it, and she promised to never make him do anything, but she really WANTS him to do it, so could we please talk him into it? Jesus. Every kid goes off the rails once in a while – and mine seem to prefer to do so only when there’s an audience – but sometimes we just need to nut up and parent our children.
My kids are pretty good in public – they don’t do anything stupid in parking lots – there is very, very rarely any kind of tantrum or wandering off or touching things they shouldn’t – and I owe this in part to small bribes, it works like a charm.
At home they are different, they understand the difference. They also understand consequences of misbehaving in public, and they are harsher than doing it at home. We give the occasional spanking but it is mostly timeouts, loss of privileges, exercises, or chores or for the worst offenses – sent to their room (for the older ones). With 3 boys – twins, 5 and another 2.5 – there is no choice but to let them have fun and explore their world at home, even if it means not always being the best behaved – otherwise when are they ever going to learn how to be themselves, to make decisions for themselves, to figure out problems independently or dare I say to take a calculated risk? It’s a fine line and this is a great discussion, I have enjoyed reading many of the posts.
Some kids are just naturally more reserved or shy and therefore, well-behaved.
I’m gonna toot my own horn – I’m white, so is my husband and so is my 10 year old stepson. I’m a stepmom (full time – the biomom voluntarily stepped outta the picture) and my stepson is one of the best behaved kids around. We routinely get comments from babysitters, other adults and counselors at the ‘Y’ about how he’s a “joy” and so polite, etc. He is articulate and confident with adults and will shake their hands and say “nice to meet you John” (for example). It’s cute as heck.
I will say, as a stepmom raising someone else’s kid, I had zero tolerance for bad behavior in public (or at home for that matter) when I first stepped into the picture 5 years ago. I am “the enforcer” in the family and exepct respect and obedience. Don’t get me wrong – he’s not perfect and he’s not a robot subject to my every command – but he is well behaved and respectful and if he’s not, he gets an earful from me (I could professionally lecture kids) and a punishment (we usually take away some amount of allowance). Never corporal punishment – I am not comfortable with it and my husband would probably divorce me if I tried. He is very easily corrected with a stern look and the tone of my voice.
I have to admit I am secretly *thrilled* when other parents ask “how do you guys do it? He’s so nice and polite!” As a stepmom, I think I view him differently than if he were my biokid – he’s not an extension of me, but someone I’m supposed to care for and am responsible for shaping into a decent adult. If the “shaping” comes from tough love, so be it. I really don’t care when he’s mad at me or pouts about being punished. I experience zero personal anxiety about his anxiety and anger. He adores me and so far my stricter methods have not seemed to traumatize him. He likes the compliments about his behavior as much as I do and he will often point out badly behaved children to me like “Pff – Holly – did you see that bad kid back there? Dude – he needs to chill out.” :)
I just read more of the comments and have to say I agree with those who point out the hierarchy of kids in most families – they come first and their happiness is the greatest concern. I married my husband because it made me happy – not because I had any desire to spend my life making my stepson happy. I love my stepson and spend time alone with him and and we do fun things, but I also drive the homework process and the chores and enforce the rules. I am just not worried whether or not he’s happy all the time – it’s a let down you when you become an adult and realize that the world doesn’t care if you’re happy – you need to make yourself happy. I like to think I enforce the idea that if my stepson wants to be happy he needs to go along with the rules.
As far as how I deal with his friends when they misbehave – I tell my stepson to “set the example” and I expect him to be the same respectful kid in front of them as usual. He just had his birthday party with his friends and I told him before and during the party, “set the example. You want the party, you lead your friends in good behavior.” Overall, they did quite well. I do tell him that when he hangs out alone with his friends, the fart jokes and burp jokes are free to flow, but not in front of us. I also call out his friends and just tell him “nu uh buddy – you’re hanging with our famiy now – knock it off.” I think as a stepmom I have a distinct advantage, thanks in large part to Disney. His friends think I might grow horns and start entering rooms in a black cloak and surrounded with smoke if they misbehave. I don’t mind using the wicked stepmom role to my advantage, but I like to surprise them by being cool and fun when they deserve it too.
Fascinating discussion!
My husband (son of Vietnamese refugees) and I (working class white-bread) have discussed this often. He remembers being spanked. I, funnily enough, am not sure if I was actually ever spanked or not, but I definitely knew the possibility was there and modulated my behavior accordingly! Both of us went to college and med school, and don’t break laws and aside from that whole him-marrying-a-white-girl part turned out ok I think (j/k…I love my in-laws and they love me…now) I’m definitely not opposed to a judicious, well-deployed spanking when we have kids.
One thing that really impressed us recently was some dear friends who are pretty young parents, and are the most hippy-dippy, tree-hugging (cf: young parents—went with the “natural” family planning!), type B peeps I know. We were at dinner and the toddler put his sock feet on the edge of the table. Mom took them down and told him no. A few minutes later, he did it again. Mom whisked him out of the room and they had a talk…and when he came back he did NOT do it again. We talked to them about it later and they said they are committed to not being the three-chances-and-even-then-no-consequences kind of parents, because who’s the boss in that kind of relationship? THE KID. Their point was that it is loving to be the boss of your kid…they NEED you to be their boss because they’re KIDS! I think that’s a point that’s often missed and one I fully agree with—especially as I got older, my parents shifted a bit from being disciplinarians to being a bit more “friends” and honestly I lost respect for them. I wished—and still do—that they had been more firm, more authoritative, and given me more direction because that is a form of love—and I think an even better one than being your kids’ friend.
[...] topic was recently brought back to my attention by my favorite blogger Linda Sharps both on her personal blog as well as in an article she wrote on The Stir. I commented myself in both places as this suddenly [...]
If I were to guess based on my own personal experience, it’s because they don’t have the grandparents there spoiling their grandchildren rotten and interfering with their parenting, and undermining their established rules. But maybe that’s just my family. *wink*
the questions are:
Why do white kids outrank hispanic and asian kids in the ADHD numbers?
Why does the incidence of ADHD increase as you head east? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
I was born in this country, but my family is Cuban, so I was one of those perfectly well-behaved children with oodles of common sense, as you put it. In my family, the tactic used to instill my good behavior, and that of my brother and cousins, was “fear.” We were threatened with being punished, spankings and the loss of our toys were we to misbehave, especially in public. All my mother or grandmother had to do was give me a stern look if I started even raising my voice louder than “indoor,” and I was to be considered “warned.” I think those attitudes were what kept us kids in line back in the day. We had to constantly strive to remember the rules set in place for us to avoid being grounded and/or spanked.
I just wanted to chime in as someone who grew up in a household with absolutely no physical punishments. My parents talked to me, reasoned with me, explained that the good behavior they expected of me was a)for my own safety and b)out of consideration of others. When I did misbehave, I had to write (or dictate, before I managed to get the knack of letters and stuff) long apologies in which I was supposed to imagine what it must’ve felt like for the other person in the situation. It really worked. Why were my parents so committed to avoiding physical punishments? Because my mother, who is hispanic, grew up in a house with a lot of yelling and swatting, and it made her miserable. Trust me, I wasn’t a wild child (that would never have been tolerated), but I never got hit either, and I am really grateful for that.
Just to clarify, I think my point was that children react differently and physical punishments are not always a necessary component of good behavior.