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Nov
4
A while ago I read an article about a group of parents who were all pissed off because their kids were being exposed to the Pledge of Allegiance. At first I thought this had to be about the “under God” part, but it turns out the issue is with the notion of pledging your allegiance to one particular country.
The fuss is happening at the John Stanford International School, which is a public elementary school that offers a dual-language immersion programs in Spanish and Japanese, and sports “interior design elements reflecting a world culture.” Sounds like an interesting, progressive environment—and apparently until recently they’ve been been the one special snowflake school that doesn’t observe the Pledge. Even though it’s been mandated by district policy and state law for years.
A new principal decided that John Stanford needed to start following the rules, so an announcement went out to parents that the students would start reciting the pledge every morning. You know, just like every other kid in every other Washington school.
Naturally, because this is Seattle, some parents freaked the fuck out. A mother of a six-year-old said, “It pains me to think that at a school that emphasizes thinking globally we would institute something that makes our children think that this country alone is where their allegiance lies.”
Another parent apparently opposes the flag itself: “But it’s ‘I pledge allegiance to the flag,’ not even the country. I don’t think we should be making kids stand up and pledge to any one thing. It just totally goes against what this community is about.”
Yet another parent wrote in to say, “The pledge of allegiance is forced patriotism. It is indoctrination. The principal’s decision doesn’t take into consideration the diversity of cultures, values, nationalities of JSIS families and staff. And then there’s the ‘under God’ part…”
The policy went into effect in October, at which point flyers started showing up on posts near the school:
Photo credit Joshua Trujillo/seattlepi.com
I cannot even make this up: the flyers read, I pledge allegiance to the Earth and all it’s (ARGH POSSESSIVE APOSTROPHE FAIL) natural systems. Interdependence is what I seek, on one planet, with one people, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
So, okay. I can understand feeling uncomfortable about the “under God” section, which was just added in 1954. I can understand if you don’t want your child to have to say something he or she doesn’t believe in. I can understand advocating that the laws be changed about the pledge, if that’s what you’d like to see happen. But I cannot begin to understand how anyone thinks their school is so unique it shouldn’t be subject to the same laws as the rest of the state. Nor can I figure how these words are offensive to the various cultures in our country.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
I mean, are we not united, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc? Is it really so bad to remind ourselves that we’re in this mess together? Hell, I’m no traditionalist, but I like the idea of Riley’s super-diverse (like, way more diverse than this John Stanford International School, according to student demographics) school saying the pledge—to me it’s less RAH RAH GO TEAM AMERICA ALL OTHER COUNTRIES CAN SUCK IT, and more of a statement that we remain undivided, even when everything seems to be falling to shit around us.
Here’s the part that really makes me crazy about this whole thing: if students who don’t want to participate in the pledge THEY DON’T EVEN FUCKING HAVE TO. They’re allowed to quietly sit or stand, whatever they choose. No one’s forcing them to say it, no one’s forcing them to believe it. So what the hell?
What do you think about all this? Are you for/against the pledge in your kid’s school?
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100 Responses to “Non-fiction Friday: hating the Pledge of Allegiance”
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Your points are valid and exactly what I though abotu the whole thing. My daughter is not fortunate enough to go to a “good” school like Stanford(because of the whole neighborhood school system). There are kids in that school that barely can spell their own name. Perhaps getting wrapped up about the pledge of allegiance is the wrong battle.
Also, I can’t spell my own fucking name.
Having been in an elementary school as a librarian, this kind of thing makes me insane because it is SO distracting to the whole school environment. Why so much attention and focus on this (not even required) instead of actually learning academic skills? (I’m just waiting for people to say that this kind of thing DOES teach about the politic process and making changes and inclusion, etc, but my experience makes me think that kids are actually more likely to learn how insane people become in this kind of conflict and that everyone loses their ability to function like a rational and civil human being).
And, like you, I like the general sentiment of the pledge of allegiance.
The pledge has been out of our public schools for years, if not for my kids private preschools (well and me leading the pledge every now and then in our home) they would never have learned or said it. I think it’s a real shame, because we use the freedom of this country to bitch about EVERY.SINGLE.THING …. honestly I am to the point where I am starting to believe that if you want a “special” school, flipping start your own…. fund it yourselves, and then teach/observe whatever-the-hell you want. My parents paid for my Catholic education for that very reason, no public school was/is flipping expected to teach the religious education I received there. Tax dollar funded PUBLIC schools should be able to recite the Pledge if they so desire…. if you wish to tell your children that its a load of crap, then do so… after all you the country you live in, which you do not pledge allegiance to, affords you that right.
and *ack* on my use of the word flipping in my comment and the extra You at the end…. GAH, my emotions got the best of me
I’m all for saying the pledge in school. I do understand that the God part of it is not for all, in which case I think it’s fine if they want to sit it out. But it does mean something to our country and it is a way to show that we are all different but part of the same place at that time.
I would venture a guess that the kids could give a shit less. As a 50 yr old who said it in elementary school, I never gave it much thought….just part of the school day, waiting to get to recess. Do they even have that anymore????
These people are a bunch of nut bags.
I’m pretty damn liberal and progressive, but would have no problem with my kids saying the pledge in school. I would rather it didn’t have “under God” in it, but not enough to get worked up about it. I like the sentiment of the pledge and think that patriotism is appropriate and a unifying, positive and CONSTRUCTIVE element in society.
Also, I think people should be allowed to abstain from saying it, if they wish to.
Against. I think it’s totally unnecessary, archaic, and dumb. The “under God” part first seemed wrong to me when I was nine, and the whole stand-up-and-put-your-hand-on-your-heart-and-pledge-allegiance-to-ANYTHING-like-a-little-soldier stuff still just creeps me right the hell out. Why not just sing the school song and be done with it?
Growing up, I was very uncomfortable with the Pledge because as a girl-child in a mostly Black school system, I knew damn well that the country didn’t have liberty and justice for all, and since my parents had raised me not to believe in god the whole thing made me feel like we were all being told to stand up and lie every morning. And just because you’re not supposed to be forced to say it doesn’t mean you won’t catch shit from your teachers for not saying it.
Thank you for being so rational about this. We say it every week in Rotary INTERNATIONAL meetings and I don’t think it detracts from the focus on the international nature of Rotary at all.
What bothers me more than anything is that there is so much more to worry about and expend energy on and THIS ISN’T EVEN A THING. It’s a law. Your school must observe the law. Isn’t that a better lesson to be teaching? That we are all subject to the same laws and if you want to change something, there is due process? How about recognizing that the Pledge has a place in our history and using it as a lesson-starter for history as well as politics? GAH! It’s making me crazy.
It never really bothered me as a kid, although in middle school I stopped saying “under God,” but as an adult?
Man, I don’t think I could say it without wanting to tack a little extra something on the end, something about liberty and justice for all who can afford it.
Hey! That’s my neighborhood! Woo hoo!
For some insight, I think a lot of the families who attend are very (liberally) politically-minded and feel like agirlandaboy put it. It creeps them out. They chose the school partly BECAUSE of the way it was run (because it is a difficult school to get into, since Seattle schools have a weird system for registration), so it’s hard to swallow if your kid has been going there six years and then they change it up all of a sudden. You’re not going to yank your kid out of school after all that time. That said, I, uh, don’t really care either way. I don’t think my kid’s school says it, but you know what? I don’t even know for sure. I am not so into the politics.
As for diversity, lived here six years and I can say safely that Wallingford is wonder-bread white. Bellevue’s going to be waaay more diverse than anything in the north end. You should see my family in Ballard. Gimme a field roast hot dog on organic multi-grain essential bakery bread at the farmer’s market while sipping some Caffe Vita as I lean on my single-speed resurrected retro Schwinn. Um, yeah, right.
John Stanford International School is pretty close to my house. That is just the tip of the crazy ass liberal hippie iceburg around here. It doesn’t surprise me at all that this is happening especially at that school.
I’m for saying the pledge. Archaic and dumb? Is national pride or a national sense of unity archaic and dumb? We still, as a nation, have tough problems to tackle, even if they aren’t war-like in nature (referencing the argument that saying the pledge is soldier-like). Teaching students that we’re part of a group, a national community with something in common is a lesson that could actually serve the global spirit in which the school was founded. Saying the pledge is not indicating that because you have national pride and allegiance that you cann’t have understanding, tolerance and agreement with other nations. But our planet and human culture does happen to align into nationalities at the current moment — are these parents advocating that there should not be individual nations? Such a silly, trivial argument from people whose ideals should ideally turn them towards actively working on solving real problems that are facing the global community, and not whether children in a country should exhibit national pride. Oh, and OPTIONAL national pride at that.
I guess I feel most like Janssen – there are so very many more issues in education to get fired up about that this feels like a distraction from real problems like our ever shrinking school year, growing class sizes, teaching to the test required by No Child Left Behind type stuff, hardly any time for lunch or recess, decreasing things like music and gym. All of those things make me fired up – this is so far behind all of that.
This school, even though public, is a privilged school in a very white neighborhood. Now, that doesn’t make it a bad thing, but you can sense the very liberal NIMBY thing going on here. And I myself am a bleeding heart liberal, but still this just makes my hackels rise.
I can understand why one might object to the pledge of allegiance, but this is what they are taking a stand on? This? Making a political statement with their children? How about have a conversation with your child and talk about your own beliefs and then let them choose whether or not to say it in class. No one ever hassled anyone who opted out in any of my very diverse (South) Seattle Public school classes.
I just feel like this is such a non-issue. How about putting that energy elsewhere? Oh say… helping this current local school levy pass so that there is just a smidge more funding for schools in less white bread neighborhoods with working parents who don’t have the time to worry about the pledge of alligance, where most the kids are on two free meals at day at school?
Can I copy your post and just post it every once in a while when someone gets all crazy about something stupid? There are so many more important things to worry about and it’s because we live in this country that we can express that worry and do something about it. That should be celebrated – and if you’re not going to celebrate it, acknowledging that our country is a little bit unique in how it runs would be fine. Saying the pledge isn’t going to kill anyone, HEARING it said – since we live in a country where you can opt out without some horrible consequence, isn’t going to scar you for life. Maybe it could just be used as an opportunity for some good RATIONAL discussions at home chalked up to another learning opportunity.
For it. Agree about putting the energy elsewhere….
Having to recite a little poem every morning before school did not make me any more or less patriotic than anyone else (and by high school, we just stood there while it was read over the loudspeaker because it was so pointless). It’s almost like it makes the adults feel better and happier that the kids are doing it, but I remember not caring and unthinkingly saying the words while worrying about tests or whatever.
I’d like anyone that thinks it’s super-easy to simply sit it out to go back in time and tell that to the teachers that would glare at us during assemblies and tell us that if we didn’t put our hands over our hearts and at least mouth the words, we were getting detention. People get worked up about something that, to most kids, is simply something said rote, without meaning. I mean, they could’ve had us recite the Adams Family theme every morning and it would’ve made just as much difference–we were just tired and wanted to get going. Quite frankly, because it wasn’t a daily part of my life, the national anthem means more, patriotically, to me than the pledge ever did or does(YMMV if you had to sing that every day). Now the pledge strikes me as a weird Cold War hang-over that people argue is to be inclusive, but can be extremely exclusive if one even suggests that it’s a bit creepy.
Patriotism for one’s country comes from more than just thoughtlessly reciting a phrase every day. That being said, I think this reaction is a bit weird, and that seems like the kind of school where perhaps children would be more easily able to sit out the pledge than the schools I attended.
To clarify, there’s nothing wrong with patriotism or national pride or any of that. But the idea that people think getting a bunch of schoolkids to automatically recite a paragraph every morning is the best way to honor that (rather than giving them a fuller education about the nation and its freedoms) feels a bit too similar to hitting “Like” on Facebook if you support cancer research rather than going out and actually raising money or doing charity work to make something happen. The pledge, to me, is just lip service. If you want to talk about national pride, actually talk about it.
I wonder what would happen if all the parents at that school talked to their kids about opting out, and so every morning the pledge was given over the p.a. to an entire school of students just sitting at their desks doing nothing. Funny to think about.
We had to say it when I was a kid, and as I recall, to me it was just a bunch of words I had to memorize and say. The end. Not a big deal at all.
Now, they also made us say morning prayers, and even in third grade I hated that. I once got in trouble for dawdling on my way back to class after taking our attendance slip to the office, because I was hoping to miss the prayer. Yes, I was a little heathen even at age 8.
I suppose to some kids the pledge could feel as oppressive as those prayers did to me. But honestly,I think it is the parents who make it a big deal and the kids don’t notice or care.
Damn. For a minute there I thought you’d relocated to San Francisco.
I’m shocked that this wasn’t on the front page of the SF Chronicle advocating that we adopt the new language in all public schools.
I remain firmly based in the “say it” league. You don’t want to pledge allegiance to the flag of THIS country? Try another. Please move. I am sure you will find acceptance and “united for all” in a number of other places. Or perhaps not….
This whole issue makes me insane. As you know, Linda, I live very close to this school and I positively DREAD sending my kids to our neighborhood school that is populated by privileged (white, rich) parents like those whose children attend JSIS. I dealt with all of this as a child in ultra-liberal Marin County, CA and while I did grow up to be a bleeding heart, school-levy-supporting, tax-me-because-I-can-afford-it liberal, the fact remains that communities like those at JSIS and the schools I attended get so incredibly insular they can’t see the forest for the trees and end up spinning around in circles over silly things like this. I can’t understand why these parents can’t act like the intelligent people they probably are and talk the issue over with their kids. The law is the law; that’s an important lesson, too.
I’m not wild about the “under God” part, but I don’t have strong feelings about saying/not saying the pledge … I am unsure why the parents who feel so strongly don’t just (1) tell their kids to opt out, if they want (which seems like the rational course) and (2) work to change the law. You can’t just expect your special snowflake school not to follow the law, right? So the teacher or whoever has to lead the pledge, the kids don’t have to say it. The end, move on to something more important.
Wendy’s comment above is a nice example of why the Pledge makes me uncomfortable. Love it or leave it! A truly American sentiment, amirite?
I think the Pledge is pointless. I’m not thrilled my daughter has to say it in school. How can a 6-year-old pledge allegiance to *anything*? She recited it for us the other day and I asked her if she knew what any of it meant. She said no. My husband and I are atheists. My daughter doesn’t know what she is yet. In this country, the “under God” part should have no place in whether you are patriotic. It’s funny that the original said “one nation, indivisible” and they then went and divided that phrase up with something very divisive.
I think the part about students being able to opt out is disingenuous, especially kids younger than high school. They don’t really have a choice, not when other kids and their teacher can give them a hard time about it. I had a Jehovah’s Witness in my class in elementary school and she did not have an easy time.
Regardless of all that, we probably won’t make a big deal out of it. I don’t know if that’s because I don’t feel incredibly strongly about it or because I’m a coward.
When I was a kid and recited it everyday it was fairly meaningless, I’m sure. As an adult, when I recently volunteered at the school and stopped to recite it with the rest of the school it suddenly seemed fairly powerful. I don’t think it is archaic or dumb, and I think it is certainly relevant especially with so many families that have loved ones fighting for our country at this very moment. WHETHER OR NOT we feel that they should be fighting, they are, and those are the people who maybe feel a tiny bit of magic when the pledge of allegiance is said. I am most definitely not a rah rah go team America sort of person myself, but I think the pledge is far from dated or stupid.
On the argument that kids will be ridiculed for opting out of the pledge (ie, sitting quietly, or standing and not saying anything), does that really seem realistic? After all, if kids also say it without thinking or caring, why would they attack a classmate for staying quiet? I can’t really imagine that happening. “WHY AREN’T YOU PLEDGING ARE YOU SOME KINDA COMMIE PINKO.” *fisticuffs ensue*
I also have a hard time with the idea of a teacher giving a kid shit for not saying the pledge. I could be wrong, but at least around here they’d be asking for a WORLD of parental outrage.
I’m against saying the pledge, particularly for small kids who don’t really get it anyway. I object to the “under god” part, but even if that were omitted, I would still dislike the pledge, mainly, because I don’t want to pledge blind allegiance to a country/flag/administration who may or may not have my best interests at heart. In other words, I want the option to disagree with the current administration.
I agree with the person above who said that the P of A is lip service anyway.
I note that there are several people here that have hurled insults at the people that hold an opposing view. This is what I dislike intensely about our country. We’re not indivisible; we can’t even tolerate differences of opinion in conversation.
Linda, this kid has taken a lot of crap for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/12/10-year-old-wont-pledge-a_n_355709.html
I think I stopped saying the pledge when I was 12. It definitely creeps me out. To ask children to spew out something like that when they don’t even know what they are saying is wrong and just weird. I know it’s hard to be a non-conformist, especially at a young age. Just as I don’t think a school should make kids say the pledge, I won’t tell my kids not to say it. I hope they’ll make that decision on their own as they get older.
As a young child, I was very impressionable and I took what I was told by my parents very literally. I believe my stance on the flag/pledge initially stemmed from learning the Christian commandment instructing people to not worship false idols. My reasoning is very different now. I believe blind patriotism is dangerous and can result in stupid stuff like people killing other people over oil and worse. (That last bit, I remember learning in high school social studies in my non-liberal farming community public school.)
For the record, I actually WAS called a communist in middle school (only because my family came from Russia – kids didn’t know what it meant, they just thought it was an insult). Kids certainly will ridicule other kids for taking a stand on anything religious, cultural, political or ideological that’s different from the mainstream. And maybe in your neighborhood teachers wouldn’t dare to press the issue with non-pledging children or would stand up for them if other kids teased them, but I don’t think that’s the case everywhere, even today.
As a non-American, watching this from afar, the pledge of allegiance seems bizarre. I don’t know of any thing like it. It is absolutely about conformity and allegiance to one’s country to the exclusion of all others. It ties in with all the rest of your (frankly) weird (and creepy!) nationalistic propaganda. I love y’all, but you’re sometimes creepy and when you’re defending stuff like this most of all.
Most surreal experience of my life was quite possibly attending a small town fall fair parade in 2002, theme: “Let Freedom Ring”. The only non-creepy part, to me as an outsider, was the hippie school with their green and yellow and red freedom=peace float. God bless the hippies.
I love the recurring theme that keeps popping up in some of the comments:
“It’s really not a big deal, so just STFU and DO IT.”
akeeyu, my other favorite is, “you wouldn’t even have the choice to not say it in another country, so you should say it!”
I…just…what??
I don’t have kids, but I remember saying the Pledge in school, and although I never said “under God” if I could help it, I don’t remember thinking anything whatsoever about it being patriotic. It was just something we said every morning. I don’t think I’ve even thought about the damn thing for 10 years, and I certainly don’t think of it when I think about how patriotic I feel about living in this country.
I guess I understand how people could not want their kids to be indoctrinated into worshipping the flag/country/whatever, but I’m not sure it makes a bit of difference to the actual kids. And aren’t they nominally doing it for the kids? Hollow.
I also find it really funny that the first couple of lines of the pledge they made up (which, I’m kind of an earth-huggy type, but yark) follow the same rhythm as the real Pledge. That rhythm is SUNK INTO OUR LIZARD BRAINS from having to say it thousands of times during our formative years.
I find it strange that ANY school is saying the pledge EVERY Day. I know that my kids have gone to schools where it was only said once a week, and by high school, they aren’t doing it at all.
I’ve never been to Stanford, so I cannot comment on their diversity, but I know that they are not unusual in being diverse in the Pacific Northwest. You’d have to look pretty hard to find a lily white public school in this area (like you’d WANT to find one anyway). I don’t think saying the pledge or NOT saying the pledge has anything to do with respecting diversity. Being open to learning about other’s backgrounds and cultures is what diversity is about. Calling a school an “international” school doesn’t make it special or extraordinairily diverse. And creating artificial controversy about the Pledge is for Yuppy Puppies who really don’t have anything else better to do with their time. Let them whine. The rest of us are busy raising our kids and trying to make human beings out of them.
I, personally, am offended by “on one planet.” What about the other planets? “In one universe,” please.
BTW, there are certain religions who forbid swearing allegiance to anything/anyone but GOD (7th Day Adventists, for example). Their belief is nothing new, and Adventists didn’t stand for the pledge when I was a kid either. It didn’t single the kids out for ridicule, although they did get a certain amount of sympathy when the other kids found out Adventists didn’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas, either. We just figured those kids’ parents were stupid.
I work in a public elementary school in LA and we say the pledge. It’s actually pretty cute, and we end it with a school “cheer” of sorts, all about acting responsibly–and with American sign language hand signs to boot! (talk about diversity) The teachers don’t remember to do it every day–and actually now that I think about it, it really only happens in K and 1st. By 2nd or 3rd, the teachers let it slide by the wayside–and nobody is the wiser, or seems to care. The whole school does do it at Friday assemblies, but that’s it. I think it’s a valuable thing for kids to learn, if only to have a common nostalgic reference when they are older-and for the younger ones it is an opportunity to stretch legs and use loud voices. Nobody cares if kids don’t say the words or opt out, but it is true that everybody has to at least stand.
I say there are far more important things in public education to worry about than this. (for example, getting soap and paper towels in the bathrooms, that’s a good place to start)
OMG I cannot fucking believe this, ugh. Why would they change the Pledge of Allegiance? That is wrong is so many ways.
I am a Christian first, so my allegiance goes to God first. But after that, I pledge allegiance to the flag because it shows respect for the nation that we have that is because of the sacrifices of others. If all these different cultures at that school are enjoying the benefits of this country, they should be pledging to help it be a BETTER, more unified place–not being divisive and making it weaker.
Um, I’m Canadian! ;)
I stopped saying the pledge of allegiance when I was 10. Honestly, I think I just did it because I liked being different, but if anyone asked (and no one ever DID, no one cared) I would have said that I thought I was too young to give away my allegiance (this is really what I thought – it was about half pretension and half sincerely taking words very seriously). And… it wasn’t a problem. Like you say, I didn’t HAVE to say it, none of the teachers even hassled me about it.
So this fuss to me translates to: 1.) My child is too much of an individual to be subjected to brainwashing and 2.) My child is not enough of an individual to stand up against brainwashing.
“You’ve got to think for yourselves! You are all individuals! ”
“Yes! We are all individuals! “
If the words in the Pledge are actually *taught* to kids so they understand what they mean, I can see it being a valuable exercise. As a rote little paragraph, it’s basically useless.
Reminds me of something I saw on the Daily Show last night: Congress “reaffirming” the US motto as “In God We Trust.” The irony was, as John Stewart pointed out, no one was proposing to change the motto. It was just a diversionary, feel-good bill that takes the focus away from the real issues facing our country.
Against. Not against the pledge or what it means or kids learning it, but against the way it is haphazardly taught. Kids aren’t pledging anything to anything. They are reciting words they have memorized. They don’t understand it, or probably believe what they’re saying. I completely think kids need to learn the pledge of allegiance. But they need to know what a pledge is, what allegiance means, and what the flag stands for, not just say the words.
No kid says the pledge thinking that it means we’re all united together. It’s a nice sentiment, and maybe the parents think it, but personally I just remember it being a rote thing we all mumbled through before morning announcements. It does seem a little creepy in hindsight maybe, but I think it’s harmless, if pointless.
The comment above about Americans being a little weird about patriotic singing is funny, as I was listening to two Brits the other day joke about how Americans recite the national anthem before every sporting event, no matter how big or small, and how the only other country we share this practice with is North Korea.
Don’t worry about it, even if the “Pledge Allegiance to the Earth” version catches on, it will be a moot point in a few years when we’ve colonized the moon/mars and then, well it’s a whole new can of worms anyway. *snort*
I said the pledge — still do, though it doesn’t happen often — and I nonetheless grew up to be an adult who thinks the right to disagree with my government is a really important one (Sometimes they don’t act in the best interest of their people. It happens.) and that pledging allegiance to said government maybe doesn’t jibe too well with that. Roundabout point being, while I see where they’re coming from, I’d guess it may not affect the kids themselves that much, and I can also understand the argument that it’s a non-issue — in practice.
But this may not be about practice for those parents, either. They could be worried about teaching their kids to let slide something they believe is wrong. Maybe they see a slippery slope. There is this idea that our list of Real Problems — as a nation, family, business, whatever — can only be x items long. Is that dangerous, or pragmatic? I think smart people can probably disagree.
Don’t really know what they’re thinking, of course, since I’m a Private Disagree-er myself. But we journalists (maybe all public writers?) have a knack for expending a ton of energy trying to figure out what someone else’s shoes feel like — whether or not we’re ever successful. :)
P.S. Arrrgh, the errant apostrophe!
P.P.S. Our lizard brains, HAAAAAAA.
Don’t like the rules of public schools? Then use your freedom to find an alternative. And while you are at it, stay out of our libraries and quit bothering our police and fire fighters too. Have you seen those indoctrinating patches they wear when pulling people out of burning homes?
Parents at this school should be embarrassed about this. I would be more impressed if these free thinking parents actually allowed their children to process and display their own reaction. Who is indoctrinating who here?
This is the ugliest fact about how our great country operates: it allows you to be ungrateful.
The same thing happened at a high school in New Brunswick, Canada. My old high school. A teacher was trying to make 2 or 3 students stand for O Canada. Which is what EVERY student, teacher, person is supposed to do when O Canada plays (I’m pretty sure it’s the same when The Star Spangled Banner plays). These 2 or 3 students refused and were sent the the principle’s office where they were supposed to be reprimanded and on lead to a suspension for disrespecting the class, the teacher, not the mention the other students, as they weren’t even being quiet about it. The students were NOT reprimanded, and the TEACHER was put on academic suspension for denying the students their right. Even though every other teacher has had to make other students stand for the anthem for years. These few students thought it above them. I cannot tell you how much it pissed me off to hear this. About MY school! All you have to do is stand quietly for 2.5 mins! It makes me wonder where all of this rebellion and disdain are coming from.
alyn –
I’m a 7th day adventist and we said the pledge, celebrated birthdays and Christmas! Not sure what kind of freaks you’re talking about :)
Against, because as others have said, the great thing about this country is that you can hate this country and burn its flag and rail against it and still be a patriotic member of society and protected by all our freedoms. Also, little kids should not have to recite a pledge that they don’t understand. You shouldn’t make a little kid recite the Pledge until they fully understand what they’re pledging.
I live in the mid west and our schools say the Pledge daily. We also teach the kids what the words mean and why we say it. I know this because I teach in a public school. I would love for this group of “enlightened” parents to share their insights with a group of soldiers or veterans. What is so wrong with showing some pride and respect for our country?
Eh, somehow I doubt any kids opting out in THIS PARTICULAR SCHOOL will get any flak for it. The kid in Arkansas lives in the Bible Belt, so that’s why HE gets it. This is another thing entirely.
As far as the “love it or leave it” mentality, obviously “dissenters” love living in the U.S.–living here is what gives them the right to voice said dissent. But, that right aside, we also have to follow rules, because part of the price of our freedoms is the responsibility to follow the laws set by governing bodies. In this case, the school district that funds the school set a rule that ALL schools start the morning with the Pledge, with those who oppose saying it simply being quiet and respectful during that very brief time. I think the whole “my special snowflake” mania that seems to have swept our society is disgraceful. Be individual, but follow the damn rules or get out there and work to get them changed. We have that very freedom to do so, so DO IT instead of sitting on your butts and whining.
I refused to stand for the pledge in High School (a Catholic one, if that matters). It struck me then, as a pretentious teenager, and still strikes me now, as someone with more graduate degrees than anyone really needs in European history, as fascist to line up a group of kids and have them blindly swear allegiance to a symbol.
My sons go to a school that says the pledge, and my older son is a Cub Scout; they start every meeting with the pledge. I still think it’s an empty exercise that is more about indoctrination than anything else, but I don’t lay that on my boys. They seem to want to say it, so I don’t make a fuss. I also don’t say the pledge myself when I ‘m there, but I do stand quietly. When they get older, I’ll explain my reasons if they ask.
Re: whether kids would be ostracized for opting out of the pledge – I imagine it varies with what area you’re in.
In my middle school, a Mormon kid did get flack from other students and at least one teacher for not saying the Pledge; this was in KY. And though it was several years ago now, I expect that attitudes in my hometown haven’t changed all that much.
I love the discussion about whether they’d get flack, and whether it depends on where you live. It’s the examples from AK and KY, not the JSIS story, that really make me think about the law and whether it should be changed. (Which I agree is definitely the way to address this if you think it should be addressed.)
But then that makes me wonder about the whole argument that it’s really not going to affect these particular kids either way. Because maybe that doesn’t matter, maybe it’s not really about their own kids, even, to those parents. Would backing a Will Phillips — to the point of actual policy change if that’s what you believe should happen — be best done from Seattle?
When laws have changed in the past, has it stemmed from the places where it was more easily accepted, like JSIS? Or from the kind of place where the “opt out” policy really wasn’t enough, and some kid ended up with a real-life problem, like in the examples from Arkansas, Kentucky, etc? Don’t know, but really interesting to think about.
In 1962 my grade 9 teacher said we would not be saying the Pledge in the morning. Big hoopla to say the least. He was gone at the end of the year. Best teacher I ever had, bar none.
(My Dad stuck up for him. I was a very proud son.)
This is such an interesting conversation! The argument that children shouldn’t be made to recite what they can’t yet fully understand makes me think of kids saying the Lord’s Prayer at night. Same thing? (We don’t do this in my house as we are godless heathens, but I sure remember saying it with my grandparents as a kid, and not understanding it yet finding the process itself a comforting ritual.)
I agree with someone above — our public schools have WAAAAAY bigger problems than whether or not to say the damn pledge. Public schools all over the country are FAILING our kids in just about every possible way. They should stop arguing about whether or not to say the dang pledge and get down to the business of educating kids.
I read this post aloud to my husband and we agreed that, when we send our son to private school, we’ll teach him the pledge at home and make sure he understands how lucky he is to live in a country that provides him with so many choices and freedoms.
I am all for the pledge of allegiance. I hope it (eventually) teaches my children respect for the nation they live in, and an appreciation for the freedoms they have. I also hope it teaches awareness about their place in a larger system (both nationally, and globally) If a child chooses not to say it, that should be their choice.
I think if the parents at this school want their children to be aware that they are part of a global community, they should teach it at home.
My children are dual citizens of the United States and Canada. We will return to Canada one day, and we will expect them to pledge allegiance to Canada when we live there. We choose to be residents of this country, and pledge our loyalty and support to it. No biggie.
Then again, we spent thousands upon thousands of dollars, and waited years for my husband to be ALLOWED to live in this great country, so perhaps our feelings of good fortune makes us feel biased.
Sorry, I am against the pledge. I am not against America or liberty or any of that stuff, but I think it’s weird and creepy that we have our kids stand up and recite a pledge of allegiance to a flag. Like another commenter said, it’s like we’re training them to be little soldiers. We’re asking them to pledge allegiance to something before they can even think about what it means or understand what they’re doing. So therefore I think it’s just wrong on principal. I would also be against the alter-pledge that the school came up with, for the same reason. It just seems like indoctrination to me.
I am not a fan of it, but don’t feel a need to fight it either. Owen had a girl in his class last year that was Jehova’s Witness, she put her head down on the desk while everyone else stood up and said it. According to the teacher this affected the little girls status in the room. Her family is now homeschooling I believe. That is sort of bothersome to me, that little girl could not have felt good being the lone wolf.
Violators of proper apostrophe use drive me crazy. You’re a kindred spirit in so many ways.
I think its odd that students are seen as soldiers for saying the pledge of allegiance. There’s nothing in it, to me, that seems like it makes kids soldiers! It seems like a real reach, to me. Also, theres nothing in the pledge that says you have to swear allegiance to the US over all other countries, but you do have to say that when you become a citizen. I am fine with saying the pledge,’and singing the national anthem, and whatever reminds us that we’re lucky to live here, as effed up as it can be. I’m also not into fighting my battles and pretending they are my kids’.
Yeah, man, I don’t know. I LIKE the PoA. I do! I find it comforting, as you said, Linda. We’re all in this shit together! And . . . since our country allows dual citizenship, I hardly think that we’re insisting that our kids become little soldiers and worship America, right? My friend has Israeli and US citizenship, fought for the Israeli army, and I know her kids say the pledge, because we’ve talked about it, weirdly.
I also don’t think of it as pledging to a government I distrust. I’ve trusted and distrusted a ton of different governmental leaders over the years, but I never thought of them as being our WHOLE country.
I didn’t really get what it meant then, but I’m not sure I would KNOW it as well as I do now if I wasn’t forced to do it then. *shrug*
Interesting discussion, and I love reading everyone’s take on it.
My Kindergartener’s school has morning assembly in the gym before school actually starts. This is optional and maybe 10 minutes max, the pledge is recited every morning-there again OPTIONAL, problem solved. Just for the record I’m for it.
“…about pledging your allegiance to one particular country.” But it’s your country. I don’t think we need to make kids into goose-stepping little robots, but I don’t think it hurts to say the Pledge of Allegiance, as several mentioned, it gives a little comfort, a little comaraderie (spell check does not seem to like what I did with that word, but I don’t know how to fix it) with your fellow students.
Admittedly, the US does not lately have much to be proud of. But we should encourage pride in our country. I’m tired of this not wanting to show patriotism for fear of alienating non-citizens. We had this after 9/11, with some people urging we not fly the flag because it would offend non-Americans living here. I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit. Most of us are descended from immigrants (love the Steve Earle song, by the way) and our ancestors came here to be Americans. They learned the language, they followed the rules, they recited the Pledge of Allegiance. They kept their ethnic traditions and passed them to us, but they became Americans. Now we bend so far over backward to not offend anyone, we’ve lost our unity.
I don’t like the “under God” part either. I was a kid when that was inserted, while Eisenhower was president. I think it violates separation of church and state. I think it appeals to those same people who constantly mouth that the US was founded as a Christian nation, when in reality it was founded on the principles of religious freedom, which in my mind includes the freedom to have no religion. But it can be nicely mumbled when you recite the Pledge. Up until I was in high school, when the teachers called roll on Mondays, they always asked if we had attended church the day before, Wow. I almost always had not, and I still remember the hot shame that made me blush every week.
But my biggest problem with this protest is that they are wasting their time on this issue when they really should be worried about their kids getting an education, and not whether they are required to recite a short poem at assembly.
Well said Judy!!!
I am one of those heathens who hates the “under god” part, but I still think these people are nutjobs. This is a PUBLIC school. Public school is provided by the government to educate the next generation of participants in our democracy (or whatever bullshit approximation of a democracy we presently have). These people have the right to remove their children from the government school, but they have no standing to remove the government from their children’s school.
Every INTERNATIONAL organization that I have belonged to that takes place in the UNITED STATES we have said The Pledge of Allegiance. Isn’t this a public school? Funded by the government of the USA? Are we not preparing our children to be active participants in the USA?
So let’s take this a step further — The olympic games — The country who HOSTS the Olympics we sing their anthem. Each country who wins a gold we sing THEIR anthem.
And to take this rant even further come on this is The United States of America, the reason we can disagree, bitch, moan, gripe and complain is what? Because we are land of the FREE and the home of the brave. So what the hell is wrong with having our children say the pledge of allegiance and have a little pride.
As a country it’s very sad as Judy so aptly put it that we haven’t as late done a whole lot to be proud of. And if we don’t continue to encourage pride in our country really, what the hell is there left. I can remember after 9/11 our neighborhood was concerned about flying the American flag because the fear we’d offend non American’s well guess what too fucking bad this is America pal, and we are allowed to disagree, attend whatever church we want, not attend church if we don’t want, show our patriotism and FLY A FLAG.
No one is going to make your kid say the pledge. In fact, you can take out the word UNDER GOD,and make it UNDER A TWINKIE, or whatever.
But from me to all of those whack jobs out there — the reason you are able to be weird is because you live in the USA, if we aren’t good enough for you go move to another country.
I don’t think this is worth going completely apeshit over, but I do think the Pledge of Allegiance is a crock of shit. I, like so many American students, started saying it in kindergarten or first grade, having NO IDEA what the heck it meant. Do you think kids that young understand what these words mean? Allegiance. Republic. Indivisible. If you feel the pledge is useful for teaching unity and patriotism, wouldn’t it make a bit more sense for us to wait until kids actually knew what they were saying? Because otherwise, we might as well make everyone recite a pledge in Latin. Isn’t it strange that so many of us recited this thing day in and day out without understanding or thinking about what we were saying? What does it mean as a “pledge” if that’s the case? My fourth-grade teacher dissected the pledge for us, asking us if we understood, and then teaching us the meanings of those big words. Besides having kids say the words “under God” in a country that supposedly stands for separation of church and state, it’s just weird to have them pledge allegiance to something that they don’t understand. Lastly, years ago I told a visiting German postdoctoral fellow and his girlfriend about the pledge and they laughed out loud. They definitely thought it was propaganda and indoctrination. If we heard about kids being made to say a pledge like it in Korea or China, that’s the conclusion most of us would draw. It’s just ethically dubious and freakin’ weird.
I am for not giving a fuck about it.
Seems like a lot of those parents are really self-important and have way too much time on their hands to think of this shit.
Honestly, I find the fact that leading recitations of the pledge to schoolchildren is required by law. What business do kids have pledging their allegiance to a nation anyway? They’re not soldiers. They’re not elected politicians. They’re not even able to vote in civic elections.
I lived abroad for two years as a Peace Corps Volunteer in Eastern Europe and my students once asked me about the pledge.
“You guys say it every morning in school?”
Yep.
“Even kids?”
Yep.
“Doesn’t that seem awfully… Communist… to you? Pledging your allegiance to a nation? I mean, c’mon on. Holy nationalism!”
Huh.
Coming from a group of nationals of a country just a decade out of Communism themselves, this definitely made me think.
Does this mean I’m going to go on some anti-pledge bender when my kiddo hits school age and enters the public school system? Nah. I’ve got bigger things to worry about and, like you said, no one can force my child to stand up, put her hand over her heart, and mindlessly mumble out words that have little to no meaning to her small brain.
But does this mean I agree with it just the same? Not in the least.
Judy was the first to make the point that seems the most obvious to me about this whole issue.
The main theme I see emerge out of this story is shame. These parents strike me as people who are a little bit ashamed to be Americans. Some of them might even feel the need to apologize for it. Hence the reaction to their children having to recite the pledge.
Sure, America and its diverse views, policies, history, etc. can sometimes be exasperating. But to want to opt-out, rather than do something about whatever you disagree with, is so weak.
The pledge, for me, was just something I memorized and recited everyday as a kid. I didn’t dwell on what it meant for me, and no adult in my life ever dissected it so I would understand its true meaning.
But as an adult, it means something to me now. I have lived abroad since 2004, and I have probably been called on to recite the pledge about 5 times since then. But when I do, I’m usually with fellow Americans, in a place where we actually ARE united for a few hours, and can together forget about our differences and just be glad we share this common bond.
If kids want to abstain, cool. It’s really the parents in this situation that make my skin crawl.
(And yes, I have met Americans abroad who apologize for being Americans. And my non-American friends are just as annoyed by their pretentiousness as I am.)
I am all for saying the Pledge. If they dont want to let em just stand there. STUPID!
on the one hand, i think these parents are making too much out of this. it’s certainly not harming / indoctrinating / brainwashing any kids, and the parents should definitely counter the PoA with information taught at home if they feel strongly about it.
on the other hand, i’m another one who thinks the PoA is weird, and i grew up saying it – i went to a catholic school for a bit – and we said it every morning before school. in second grade i started abstaining, because it made me uncomfortable, and in the late 80s in NJ – not exactly bible belt kentucky in the 50s – the teachers got on my case about it. i ended up mouthing it resentfully so that i wouldn’t get in trouble
the thing i find even WEIRDER are all you folks who get so defensive when someone doesn’t want to say it. if it’s “just nothing” and “who cares” whether our kids say it, why do YOU care so much?? i refuse to believe that a child – or more importantly, an adult – not wanting to be forced into a communally-chanted pledge directed at a flag is somehow detrimental to our unity as a country, or that it affects anyone’s patriotism.
(also: agree with folks who are saying imagine how we’d react if we were told schools in china made every school-aged child chant a pro-nationalist verse to the chinese flag every day. we wouldn’t find it an endearing display of harmless national pride.)
I think expecting a kid to understand pledging allegiance on their own is pointless, but kids are taught to do lots of things they don’t understand just because it’s polite.
I do like the idea of the pledge as a reminder of unity. The words don’t say anything about blindly following and agreeing with current administration and political process, it’s about being one country with an idealistic goal. I think it’s very positive for the most part.
I despise the “under God” part because I think everything McCarthy did with Christianity and government is a blatant violation of my Constitutional rights. I fight to change this by writing letters to all federal legislators reminding them of the Founding Fathers’ intentions. If I were very, very wealthy I would take it to the Supreme Court.
If I had kids in a school where the pledge was required by law, I would teach them what it means and teach them not to say any part they don’t believe in. I would also talk to their teacher to make sure they understood that my child might not say all of it and that they are doing so with my guidance.
At the same time I would fight to change the law. Trying to coerce a school into breaking the law is stupid and sets a terrible example. Young kids lack the sense of scale and perspective to truly understand lawbreaking by the adults in their lives. To them it is just scary and confusing.
Kids are bullied because they are perceived by high status kids to be weak targets. Any child who would be bullied for not conforming to saying the Pledge would almost certainly bullied for not conforming to something else, even if the Pledge were removed. It is a pointless exercize to try to remove every instance where childrens’ differences will show.
Interesting post!
I was wondering if you’d be interested in sharing your articles with other like-minded parent bloggers? If yes, please email me at info@atomicreach.com with Parents in the subject line.
Thanks,
Anne
I haven’t read all the comments, but I have to shout out to Shelly who put it so eloquently. I agree with her completely.
The thing that disturbs me most about this is it is *our* generation that is seemingly causing the problems. The entitlement, the outer-reaches freaking out about everything. WTF? I understand being a conscientious objector but not to the point that you are objecting everything. And especially if it’s something that seems to me to be such a trivial matter given all the other things in this world that are so wrong.
Battles, yo. Gotta know when to pick ‘em.
I personally don’t say the pledge. Well, if the me that feels the way I feel now went back to school, I wouldn’t say the pledge. But I’m an adult in an office and don’t have to mess with any of that shit anymore.
My eight year old does, though, and I really don’t care. Kudos for the passion and activism and will to fight for what you believe in, and all – but pick something that matters.
No child is going to be ridiculed for not saying the pledge in THIS school…
If they don’t want to go by the Seattle public schools’ rules – they should enroll their child in private school.
Jeeze. What a subject for people to fight about….
Here in NM we are so overrun with Mexicans that don’t speak English, that they teach the Pledge in Spanish, as well as English.
If you aren’t feeling patriotic, or proud of your country then don’t say it, but just like the national anthem, everyone should know it. Because seriously? Having a famous singer open the super bowl without knowing the words is embarrassing. And that’s no matter what you believe.
But must our children vow their devotion to their country, whatever that means, every. single. day? Frankly it creeps me out. If our flag were black, red and yellow, like, say, the German flag, people would be screaming nationalism. I can see once a week at Monday assembly or something, but why on earth must it be every single day? It’s extreme and smacks of brainwashing to me.
Just playing devils advocate but it may not be as cut and dried as it would appear.
When my children were small we lived in the Netherlands and my eldest daughter attended the International School. Now I probably wouldn’t have done anything about it BUT I think I would have been a little weirded out with her pledging allegiance to the Netherlands.
Perhaps they are foreign children and Parents?
In the 8th grade I sat out the pledge (more b/c I needed to finish my homework, but when asked I told the teacher it was my right not to say it) and my teacher chewed me out in front of the entire class. I said that damn pledge every day after that!
ps–that was in 1987
In 5th grade, I too sat out the Pledge in protest because the flag did NOT seem to stand for those ideals. I was beat up on the playground.
Comforting ritual. I like that, Linda! And bravo for again getting people to think. I am the mom of two little boys. They go to a school that teaches through Integrated Thematic Instruction and emphasizes art and science. I don’t know if they say the pledge every day or just once in awhile, but I love the sense of community that we have at our school. We require parent participation…and if you don’t do the time, you don’t get to come back! Parents/grandparents/relatives are everywhere on campus, involved in the learning process. I don’t know if they say it, but I wouldn’t mind one bit. They need some comforting ritual in this crazy ass world that is spinning out of control. They need to be reminded what respect is – respect for themselves, their family & friends and yes, their country.
At my Catholic school, we said the pledge every morning and added an addendum that I didn’t know the kids at public school didn’t say until I was in high school.
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic, for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Born and unborn, God bless America.”
Talk about indoctrination.
I always said the pledge. I know it’s not edgy, hipster or nonconformist, but I still would. I think Facebook is a bigger form of indoctrination than the Pledge of Allegiance.
I’m another one who can bear witness to how poorly a Jehovah’s Witness girl in my 5th grade class was treated over her silently and respectfully opting out of reciting the pledge. I think it’s completely out of line to train children to swear any kind of political allegiance to anything. Let’s leave that kind of business to us adults.
There are 2 main reasons people refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance:
1) “Under God” in the pledge was thrown in back in the 1950s, during the Red Scare, in order to somehow be a defense against the lack of religion in communist countries.
2) Refusing to say the Pledge is done to preserve our right to to free speech.
The pledge is forced patriotism and indoctrination. That is what communism and dictatorship does, not here.
Pledge to truth and justice. America can become immoral,our nations leaders and its people can become misguided so truth and justice remain our goal,not the abstract allegiance to a flag.