Linda, I think I love you :) In a totally non-creepy way of course!

As a non-mother who works outside the home, I am jealous of stay-at-home non-mothers. I’m not sure how having kids would alter the equation, but I’m pretty sure it would still boil down to being jealous of people who have the wherewithal and circumstances to do whatever they want, to be free to stay home (working for pay or not) or to work outside the home.

I am definitely tired of our weather this summer.

I can’t remember if I ever posted this, or just thought it, but I think one reason SAHMothers get so freaked out about this issue is that if women that work outside the home are raising their kids AND working outside the home, then what are the SAHM’s doing except slacking.

Linda, was your beef with Rachel for posting about it or the commenters for commenting? I didn’t see the comments, once I saw there were like 53 or something it was too depressing to contemplate.

I have said it one million times in the last three years and I will say it one million more – it is freaking HARD no matter how you do it. It’s expensive, and hard and some days beats the shit out of you and hard and HARD and it’s hard! to raise children but it’s ultimately rewarding, however you do it, or I guess we wouldn’t be doing it at all.

i work outside the home while my three baby triplets are in daycare because i have no choice. but believe me, i wouldnt’ have it any other way. i dont’ want to be a sahm, esp to three demanding little beasts! i love ’em, but for my mental health (and believe me, they get more one on one attention and socialization at daycare than they do at home with just me) i need to get out of the house every day and go to work.

plus, otherwise we’d have to live in a cardboard box.

ps sorry ’bout the misplaced apostrophes.

I love my kid to distraction. That said, I’m not really sure how our culture got to this overheated place regarding all child rearing decisions. (Breast feeding, Circumcision, Vaccinations, all HUGE people losing-their-minds-and-resorting-to-personal-insults argument starters). Really, wtf. They are kids and there are a million and one ways to raise them. Chill the f%^* out.

Oh, and we can all rejoice that the first commenter isn’t breeding!

About the weather: WORD WORD WORD! SAY IT! How badly can it suck? What will we say when it’s still SUCKING in July?!?!?!?!?!?!

I’m going to go guzzle my vitamin D drops now!

MEP – “And I don’t have to go around swinging my parenting dick and berating others to prove it to myself, either.”…That is just awesome.

This, along with breastfeeding arguments just make my eyes bleed when reading them on parenting sites.

And I think PD hired Rachel only to stir up shit over there because she never, ever posts anything that is not totally judgemental or fodder for other-kinds-of-parenting bashing.

OHMYDEARLORD.

I would love to say I thoroughly read and contemplated all comments on both Rachel and your posts, but in reality, my head exploded after, like, four.

(Although Swistle cracked me up, pawning her kids on the school system like that. SLACKER.)

I think Rachel comes close to it when she says: “Look, there are some real perks to being a SAHM that even we SAHMs are afraid to admit to, lest someone accuse us of being lazy, ungrateful, or lacking in ambition for temporarily dropping out of the rat race to raise kids.”

My SAHM dirty little secret is that for me it is a lot easier than working and parenting would be. And I am kind of a lazy person. So what?

All I know is I am a woman who holds a full time job, is single, and has a lovely (most of the time…) 2yo at home. Don’t people understand it takes a villiage to raise a child? I think choosing to work/stay at home is completely personal and is based on your current life situation, but one does not trump the other at ALL. It is what it is. As long as everyone keeps level heads, sets good examples, and makes the best of their life situations the world would be a better place.
Great post…I can understand your frustrations completely!!
(is that two cents, or ten? hehe)

I stay home. I like it. I also work from home, more than part-time, and I like that, too.

Sometimes I wish I could get dressed up and go do work in an office like a “real” writer/editor. Sometimes I wish I could blow off work and take my kid to the zoo on a random Tuesday like a “real” SAHM.

Sometimes I wish I could be anywhere in the world but stuck in the playroom for hours on end with my kid. Sometimes I have to go away for work and I miss him so much I feel like my insides are dying.

I could never see any of this mommy war bullshit in black and white, because it isn’t. I’m about as happy with MY CHOICES as I think anyone can be, and still. Not black and white, no one-size-fits-all, and at the end of the day I am waaaaay too exhausted to give a flying fuck what anyone else does.

(I’m also hoping that after the birth of our second child I will be too exhausted to give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks of what I do. I have big dreams! Aim high!)

Man, Parent Dish is second only to You Tube for the batshit loco comments. Talk about bringing the crazy.

In situations like that, I often have to breathe deep and remember this (terribly un-PC) truism: “Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”

I think both sides get the shaft: the SAHMs get belittled for slacking and the working (outside the home) moms get told they’re not raising their own children. I think this leads to all moms (or, say, 98%) having a hint of doubt that they’re doing the wrong thing, which leads to defensive comments disparaging others’ choices, and that goes for both sides.
I plan to stay at home when I have kids, and I have had a lot of otherwise very intelligent women peers tell me that that would be a waste of my college education. Thus I tend to bristle when I read that people think it’s only the SAHMs being unfair here, because in my experience people on both sides of the issue can be obnoxious.

I am so over this shit, over Hirschman, over Warner, over Caitlin Flannigan. I’ve been a mom for 17 years and played every one of the roles debated. I don’t want to talk about it anymore.

BUT I understand why it keeps constantly getting debated, because there are a lot of moms who haven’t been doing it for 17 years. There are new generations of moms trying to figure it out for themselves. I think part of working it out is debating it. However for some people it’s hard to debate and ultimately respect other’s choices. Instead they want to accuse and make themselves feel secure in their own decision by demeaning someone else’s.

In short, it’s a debate that will never go away, because it’s part of our maturation of women and mothers to think about it.

Sundry: I *heart* you but I HATE Parent Dish with a burning passion. I swear, all you do is hear the SAME stuff (and craziness) over and over and over.

To all of the commenters who compared motherhood to 100 years ago…..BRILLIANT! My mom worked and so did BOTH of my GRANDMOTHERS! And our family survived!

Both my parents were full-time workers so from a really young age I was always in daycare. I used to get jealous when my parents weren’t there to pick me up from school (the daycare bus did that) and other kids’ parents were, but at the same time, I’d travelled to many countries as a youngster, lived in a decent house, got to have piano lessons etc. because my parents worked hard to be able to afford all this. I have always lived comfortably, was never neglected and grew up to be a (in my opinion heh) well educated, well adjusted individual. I didn’t end up being raised by a pack of spider monkeys because my parents worked.

I say file it away. I’m not a parent and even this topic makes me crazy. You KNOW this is something that will never change, and as long as you are doing what’s right for YOUR family, then who cares what others think!

Dude, PD seems to be more trouble than it’s worth. I’m a big believer in the following two cliches: the grass is always greener and to each her own.

What I RILLY want to comment on is your lastest twitter. Too bad there’s not a niche market for poop shrapnel – it sounds like you’d be up to your ears in gold and diamonds with all that you’ve dislodged.

Yeah, this was an ugly topic, but did you read the comments on the story about the vegans who starved their kid. Yeesh. If you haven’t, don’t do it!

I pretty much only read your and Roger’s posts. His comments get pretty crazy, too, but there are generally fewer of them.

My mom worked as my brother and I were growing up. In fact, my mom told me that she went home from work one day, popped out a kid, then went back to work soon after. (Not in those words exactly, I just embellished.) Back in the mid-70s she was was looked down on by her coworkers. ‘Why aren’t you staying at home???’ they would all shout telepathetically.

We had a babysitter and she was absolutely wonderful. I think the fact that my parents both worked set a great example for my brother and me. My dad still had time to read The Jumblies to us at bedtime and my mom still had time to take us to movies and museums on weekends.

Anyway, I think we turned out alright. We’re a little loopy sometimes, but I don’t think that’s because my mom didn’t stay at home.

By the by, I went to school with Linda Hirshman’s daughter. They had a really cool house.

I am a SAHM because it is what I want to do. I gave up my career, and although I sometimes have regrets, I think I made the right choice for my family and for my own happiness. I personally could care less whether the mom next door decides to work outside the home or not.

But, I am truly sick of reading about how my children won’t have a work ethic and will grow up spoiled. Please explain that to me? I shouldn’t have read PD because my favorite comment was the one that said that at least working moms are contributing to society. Well that sucks! Not only are my kids screwed, but apparently I am not a productive citizen either.

How about everyone STFU! There are aspects of being female that are just shitty . . . we have the burden of being pulled in two different directions, careers and mothering. It is an emotionally exhausting inner struggle that I will probably have for most of my adult life.

Linda,

Whatever you do, never ever EVER STFU, please.

: )

Carrie

It’s O.K. Linda, I am sure you have many more years to talk about this. ;)

I’m not planning any kids and I’m for more adoption among families. That’s where the line between me and the first commenter (BOO!) is drawn. Geez. I went to pre-school and day care.. I went to school.. Good Lord I’m in freaking college and I talk to my mother EVERY DAY MULTIPLE TIMES. I can’t even tell you the name of my day care providers. I barely remember those years.

Hello! Is it bad? No. My Mother and Father had to work so that they could afford to give me the life I’ve had. I’ve been VERY lucky and I’m thankful. Working parents are NOT a bad thing.. if it was possible for all mothers to spend as much time at home with children that they wanted, It’d be a great world. Truth be told.. the economy will NEVER be that good second.. I don’t know if I could spend a week with a baby without going crazy.

Having children isn’t always a choice! I was blessed with the most wonderful “accident” at not the most optimal time in my husband’s and my career. As a result, we both HAVE TO WORK in order to pay the bills an cloth and diaper this child. Yeah, yeah, we could sacrifice and live on generic mac and cheese and drive one car and not have cable, but c’mon, let’s be realistic! We choose the best life possible, and FOR US, that means both working, and send our child to daycare. life isn’t always the best laid plans. Even if we had plans, I love my daughter and I love my job. I would prefer to have BOTH!

and let me add, whichever way you choose or you are dealt, do it in the happiest, most joyful manner, and then, more power to ya! Life is about making the best of it. Making the best isn’t the same for every person!

Okay– I am going to admit two things:
1. I didn’t read all the comments, because the first one irritated me and,
2. I don’t have kids.

That said: How dare anyone on earth be critical of someone else’s life choices and HOW DARE someone make judgements about how people raise their children. ACCCKk- that just sets me free.

Let’s not forget those Texas cult mothers who are all batshit crazy SAHMs! And if your mother was Dr. Laura wouldn’t you want her to go to work? Gah….

The debate is tiresome but also good because it shows that many people are passionate about doing what’s right for kids, not just their own but all kids. I am for asking the question over and over again, which are the best methods for raising the next generations? There are so many problems our world faces, these kids need the best start they can get.

There are parents who stay home – they don’t work and live on welfare, they might be doing drugs in the bedroom with the kids in the house, or they sleep all day and “forget” to get up…but they are home with the kids…

Are these good parents too?

I work because I believe that it makes me a better person and a better mom. And the time that I spend with my children is 100% about them.

I am so excited that I discovered your blog!(Always the last one to the party.) I got it from the “recommended feeds” section on google reader, and spent an hour going back through old posts. Anyway, you are so fun to read and your boys are freakin’ adorable. I’ll be a regular.

I’m going to ignore that first comment (and, well, all of them) and say Linda, I’d kiss you on both cheeks (and totally not in a gay way, though there’s nothing wrong with that) and say THANK YOU JEEBUS if I could.

Yes, please, can we all just shut the f*&$ up and get on with our very diverse lives? I, for one, both HAVE to work and NEED to work full-time which are two different things. I make it work. My kids are happy. I’m happy. I love my kids and I like my job. I like health insurance and pension plans. I like a roof over my head. I’m “doing it for the children” after all.

I’m the one raising them even if we’re not staring each other down 24/7 (which, frankly could get ugly). Haters can’t mind their own business because they have no lives but ours. And I certainly never heed the advice of non-parents. Walk a mile in my shoes (though I may have just stepped in something kinda nasty, so proceed with caution) and THEN spout off. Come meet my smart creative children and THEN tell me I’m doing something wrong.

Have a lovely weekend with your adorable kids that other people are raising for you! (Really, how do I get on that list? I seriously need a vacation in my own house. Alone.)

Here’s the thing about it that really gets me, and my apologies if I missed a similar comment in skimming:

Why is it just women? Why do we never hear about, say, the guilt of Dads who work outside the home? Why is there no “Working Father” magazine?

These silly arguments set back feminism, to me, not just because they basically demean women for making their own choices, but because they shift the focus away from men and the goal of equal, gender-less parenting. It isn’t JUST women who make these decisions, and it isn’t JUST women who make babies, for that matter.

Grr.

Happy place happy place. :)

APPLAUSE!!

YES! Fay, that is totally the only thing that comes to mind every time this argument comes up. “Wither the SAHD?”

Well, that and STFU, haters.

werd.

Honestly, I think that *most* people are reasonable about it. But those that aren’t are the most vocal, it seems, so they’re the ones keeping the debate going.

Note to the most vocal: YOU WILL NOT CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND.

Plus? My kids go to an in-home daycare run by a mother-daughter team. The babysitters are like an aunt and grandma to my kids. They love their babysitters. My five-month old lights up like a chandelier when she sees her Nana. If we’re away from the sitters for a few days more than usual, my son starts asking when he’s going back. They’re just more “family” for the kids to grow up with. I see no harm in exposing them to play time with other kids and the love and attention of other adults while I work to make money for bills. Because it’s either that or Teh Welfare and I doubt the haters would really like me siphoning off some of their hard earned paychecks for my breeding ways.

Linda, please don’t STFU. I would go through withdrawal.

I’d like to say this:

Both my parents worked from as far back as I can remember.

They successfully raised 2 children. My brother, who is 30, never went on some juvenile delinquent tirade and knocked over a 7-11. He did go on to college, become an accountant, and has travelled the world over.

I’m 25 and while I enjoyed drinking from my 18th to 22nd years, I eventually grew the hell up and realized I’m literally drinking money, of which I had very little. I, too, am a college graduate and teach high schoolers about Geography and History. I participate in numerous charities and this year will be the 3rd presidential election in which I’ve participated.

My point? Both parents can work and raise children who are productive members of our society. Any asshole who touts about how important it is for a parent to stay at home needs to get a damn clue. It’s about the time you spend with your kids. Make it quality, teach lessons, do flash cards…whatever.

As a side note: with the price of EVERYTHING rising, it’s a good thing there’s a lot of double-income families out there. Shit.

Keep on trucking! You’re doing an amazing job and I’m glad you share the ups and downs with us. I don’t even have kids (and God knows, I probably should NEVER have kids), but I enjoy your stories!

I’d like to say this:

Both my parents worked from as far back as I can remember.

They successfully raised 2 children. My brother, who is 30, never went on some juvenile delinquent tirade and knocked over a 7-11. He did go on to college, become an accountant, and has travelled the world over.

I’m 25 and while I enjoyed drinking from my 18th to 22nd years, I eventually grew the hell up and realized I’m literally drinking money, of which I had very little. I, too, am a college graduate and teach high schoolers about Geography and History. I participate in numerous charities and this year will be the 3rd presidential election in which I’ve participated.

My point? Both parents can work and raise children who are productive members of our society. Any asshole who touts about how important it is for a parent to stay at home needs to get a damn clue. It’s about the time you spend with your kids. Make it quality, teach lessons, do flash cards…whatever.

As a side note: with the price of EVERYTHING rising, it’s a good thing there’s a lot of double-income families out there. Shit.

Keep on trucking! You’re doing an amazing job and I’m glad you share the ups and downs with us. I don’t even have kids (and God knows, I probably should NEVER have kids), but I enjoy your stories!

I believe it truly takes a village. And is up to the parents to make sure that village is as safe as reality will allow. To expect one person to take care of children all the time 24/7 for 18 years is unrealistic. Not to mention a soul stealing process. The more we can derive from the world around us and pump back into our families the better we all are.

just my humble opinion.

I am currently having a stay-at-home vs. go-back-to-work-already debate raging in my own head. Shall I take care of my kids myself, all the time? Or shall I feed and clothe them? Choices, choices.

I don’t understand this belief that working parents are somehow farming their children out to other people to be raised.

There are approximately 168 hours in a week. Most kids are in daycare for what, 40-50 of those hours? Aren’t the parents still spending the majority of the remaining hours actively responsible for their kids? It’s not like raising the little guys is restricted to a 40-hour workweek.

I had no idea this was such a hot topic! I don’t have kids, and don’t really want them (I’m a horribly impatient person and I don’t think I’m mom-material! Plus I think all the “Jon & Kate Plus 8” families in the world more than make up for my lack of contribution to the population boom.) but that doesn’t give me the right to tell parents how to raise their kids. I will admit that there are times that I really want to tell some ignorant parent “don’t just sit there, DO something” when their child is screaming on the train at 1 a.m., but (a) it’s not like I would know what to do myself and (b) I don’t like having my hair pulled by angry sleep-deprived women. As for my upbringing, my parents had the IDEAL situation… they owned their own business and worked from home. Best of both worlds if you ask me! IF by some crazy act of God I change my mind and decide to reproduce, this would be my goal.

I can’t believe some people would choose to have children and then would have the audacity to ever let them out of their sight! You think you can leave that child with your sister while you use the bathroom?? What nerve! Take responsibility for your choice! Your days of using the bathroom unaccompanied are over!

You! Must be the only presence in YOUR child’s life!

*cough* I don’t know if I could’ve made it more sarcastic…

The recurring argument just baffles me. Myself and every. single. one. of my friends were raised by mothers and fathers that worked outside of the home, and we’re all happy, healthy, productive members of society.

This applies to WAY more than the SAHP/working parent issue, but holy crap, a lot of people sure do have a hard time wrapping their tiny little heads around the concept that hey, just because a certain decision or choice was right for them, that doesn’t mean EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET should make the same damn choice.

I worked outside the home for a year and put my 1-year old in daycare (now he’s 2.5 and is JUST FINE, thank ye!). Now I’m back to being a SAHMama with another kid on the way. For me, when I’m working, I always wish I was at home with my kid, and when I’m not, I think of how nice it’d be to have a job outside the home.

My toddler learned so much in daycare! Socializing, sharing, and learning from other adults and kids are PRICELESS (unless they’re learning how to pick their nose or something, of course). I’m grateful for the year we had our son in outside care. And now I’m happy to be staying at home again. ONE IS NOT BETTER THAN THE OTHER. It’s all about what works for each unique family.

SUCKADICK, people. Jesus. CAN YOU HEAR MY EYES ROLLING?

Ouch. They’re stuck.

Ok, but seriously? What does it matter WHO the kid’s with all day as long as that person loves them and takes care of them? If that’s Mom, then great, having Mom around all day is fantastic. If that’s Dad, then great, having Dad around all day is fantastic, too. But ya know what? If it’s Ms. Jones from the daycare who loves your kid and takes care of your kid then how can that be bad???
For crap’s sake, what can be bad about spending all day with Ms. Jones who loves me and then getting picked up by, and spending all night with, Mom and Dad who, by gosh and by gum, love me too???

How about this? Everyone do what’s right for them, stop worrying about keeping up with the Joneses, be confident in your decisions, and lead a life that makes you happy.

And while we’re all at it, how about the fact that this discussion generally gets limited to women. Why don’t we band together with all this catty energy and channel IT into something more productive, like equal societal pressure for both parents.

I hate when blog posts, comments or articles make me question my parenting decisions. I’m confident my decision to stay home full time with my kids was the right choice for my family. It’s not always fun, it’s not always rewarding, but I still think it is what works for us. Despite this, reading articles on the working mom v. stay-home mom debate make me question my decision. Is it really a good idea for all of my degrees to be sitting in a box in my closet gathering dust? I wish I had the self confidance to know without a doubt I made the right choice. Until I find that utopia, I agree with you Linda, STFU on the debate.

That being said, perhaps what I dislike more than reading about the working mom v. stay-home mom debate is the comments that follow saying, “to each their own,” “who are we to judge,” “what works for one family doesn’t always work for another.” Of course these comments are dead on, but they’re not realistic. I think most people really feel their parenting decisions are the right ones — and everyone judges. I hate the little judgemental voice in my head that sounds off occassionally when I hear another Mom disciplining their kid, or talking about feeding issues, or voicing sleeping concerns. Luckily, being a parent has taught me to keep the little voice where it belongs, in my head. I think good moms learn to be good listeners. That’s really what other Moms need from us. We don’t need advice or critiques — we just need a nice shoulder to cry on and a little reassurance that we’re doing our best.

Yeah, Yawn. Ugh, this is such an old argument (not to mention an old book referenced in her post…) I blogged about it back in June 2006 when the book was published and pretty much summed up my feelings about this particular topic. I’m a SAHM and it is exactly what I want to do – but sometimes it fucking sucks. Like this week, for example. But all jobs blow at one time or another, right? Interestingly enough, my three best friends in the world are moms who work outside the home. I hate the mommy war thing. My best friend and I started a blog on the premise of the mommy wars being a myth (now if only we could keep up with the blog -she works full time and I’m at home full time and wouldn’t you know it, neither of us has time to properly blog!!! Maybe if anyone was reading it we’d be more apt to post…so not to pimp, but well – to pimp – here’s the link. The first couple of posts are our perspectives on mommy war-hood…

http://winecoloredglasses.blogspot.com/

Sundry – I LOVE YOUR BLOG. It is the single most shared link I’ve ever passed on. Love It.