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Jun
11
Oh god, are we still talking about this? Note to the million-and-one ParentDish commenters who opined that all mothers who work outside of the home are jealous of those who stay at home full time: ah, no. If I am jealous of anyone, it’s the rare breed of parent who purely loves staying home OR working OR a combination of the two because it truly fulfills them and makes them happy and — here’s the important part — doesn’t feel compelled to crap on defensively about their choice and explain why the alternatives to their own situation are undesirable to not only themselves but somehow, mysteriously, every other parent on earth. I am jealous of this maybe-mythical person because when I read someone’s comment that if a family has two working parents they shouldn’t have kids because “kids are a prividlede not a right!” (side note: is a spellchecker a privilege too?) I can’t stop my OWN self from crapping on about how close-minded this is and how every working parent has their own unique situation and the tired-ass argument that keeps getting trotted out about how when you work outside the home you aren’t actually raising your own kids reminds me of a bunch of slack-jawed morons holding up misspelled signs that declare the earth is flat, FLAT WE SAY, and really, maybe if I could just not CARE about other people having (crazy) opinions about my parenting choices I could sit back and concentrate on feeling fulfilled and happy instead of FROTHY-MOUTHED and RAGE-Y.
Oh god, am I still talking about this?
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106 Responses to “Searching for my inner STFU”
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Well, I don’t have kids. I’m against breeding myself. I wish more people would either not have kids, or if they MUST raise them, ADOPT.
Also, I think kids need a full time parent in the house. Which is one of the trillion reasons I’m not having kids. Having a kid and then pawning it off on the nanny or day care isn’t taking responsibility for the choice you made.
I know my opinion doesn’t matter since I don’t have kids. But I still put it out there anyway. Hah.
*going to my happy place . . . going to my happy place . . . om . . . *
I’m not sure it’s you who needs the tall glass of STFU, Linda. Although I have to say I’d be happy to serve some to the first commenter here. Sigh. I love the whole “pawning it off” part. I’m not sure how sending your kid to day care or a nanny is failing to take responsibility for your child. Strangely enough, there is no question in my four year old’s mind about who her mommy and daddy are, even though she’s been in day care the last two years.
Wait, maybe it’s me who needs to just STFU. (I just kind of couldn’t believe your first comment. Ay yi yi.)
Just as every family is different so is the way we parent our kids. I feel we all should do as we see fit, work in the house, work outside of the house, not work at all whatever needs and can be done.
I do not see a big deal here.
*loud whistle of support for this post* (I can’t do a whistle like this, in actual fact. Which is yet another reason to love the internet.)
AMEN Linda! You are preaching to the choir with this one.
Oh, also! My two older kids go to school all day, as do most kids at age 5 or 6. I’m going to send all the other kids, too, when they hit that age. So I guess I shouldn’t have had kids at all, since I’m going to pawn them off on the school system and let the school system raise them.
Ugh, sometimes I wonder how people function?! I agree, I am not sure why personal choices within a family spark such heated debate sometimes. I mean, if the kids are healthy and well cared for, who cares how the parents accomplished it? Everybody should do what works best for their family and leave it at that! Grrr!
I tend to get all delete happy when people tell me that I am making the wrong choices with the kids. Because Guess what? My kids are great and wonderful and they think that we do a pretty good job. So, anyone that has a negative thing to say about it can take a nice long drink off of that glass of STFU!
Thanks for sharing your opinion about this topic. I am glad I am not the only one that feels this way.
Oh Lord. Does anyone ever say that the dads are pawning off their children? Or those who send their kids to school are pawning off their children? It is all very tiresome and ridiculous and I guess all I can say is WORDY WORDY WORD WORD
Swistle- BRILLIANT with the analogy that shoots the whole argument to hell.
Having children is at least five years in the future for me, but honestly, the scariest thing to me when that time comes will be having to deal with all the holier-than-thou bullshit that some women spew to one another regarding one another’s parenting choices…bottle vs. breast, working mom vs sahm, etc.
I as someone who does not have kids, but can’t wait for the day to, feel this is quite the topic. I was in a relationship for a year and a half with a man I want to be my husband, except for the fact he doesn’t know if he wants children. That was a deal breaker. He didn’t have thoughts like the first commenter, but definately had some feelings of doubt, which I blame primarily on his past, the way he was raised and life experiences growing up. Which is really unfortunate. Kids are a blessing, and I can not wait to create children with the man of my dreams.
I don’t have kids so maybe my thoughts don’t count for much but I am young and can very much remember growing up in a two parent, both working household.
Starting at 1 year of age I went to a babysitter who was phenomenal. She was Italian and I had a slight accent for a little bit, but who cares? I then went to day care when I was school age. My dad worked nights which meant he was home during the day but needed to sleep. I LOVED day care. My mom had 5 weeks of holiday time which she’d take in the summer to be with us and seriously, my sister and I begged to go to daycare to play with our friends so during those 5 weeks off, she took us to day care a few times just to make us happy.
I remember reading a journal article in university that showed that children who attend day care have an easier time adjusting to kindergarten/grade 1. They have an easier time making friends/being social. I think the journal article also said that those benefits level off after a couple years but who cares?! Seriously, either parenting situation is good and has it’s pros and cons. But honestly, I’m so happy my mom worked and sent us to daycare. And I think when your kids are older they will say the same thing.
Not that you need to hear that from me, I’m sure you already know that. But in case you need a reminder, there it is.
I think people should mind their own business personally. I would be a horrible mom if I was a SAHM, I know this. I know myself, my family and know that my choices are right for us. That’s all that matters and I dont understand why people have to be so insecure as to think that “their way” is the “ONLY RIGHT WAY”.
wow. ok yeah, HI!!
I agree with you!
I used to be one of those people who tended to believe that if you chose to have children, it was ideal that you stay home and raise them. Then I had my own kids. And while I DO stay home and raise them, I can see how some moms simply can’t do it or who really aren’t doing their kids any favors by being with them 24/7.
If working full- or part-time makes you a better parent, or you HAVE to work for financial reasons, do it. I don’t think working parents love their kids any less than SAHParents. It’s a damn tough job and some people can cope with it better by maintaining a bit of an outside life.
I just don’t understand why people can’t just “live and let live”. Especially those that aren’t even in The Parent Club.
WHO CARES what other families are doing, as long as the children are loved and well cared for, as long as all of our collective goals is to raise productive, happy members of society? Beyond that, WHO CARES? I still don’t understand WHO is actually out there that gets so worked up over someone they don’t even know making a different decision for his/her family.
I’m so glad (MOST) of those commenters don’t make their way over here.
Why are the people that comment over at PD so crazy? ALso, why did Rachel decide to blog about that issue, knowing the kind of crazytown it would bring about? I read the first sentence of that and moved on; I knew it would piss me off. For what it’s worth, Sundry I totally respect your choices and feel pretty good about my own too. Full stop.
So if somebody is against breeding, does that mean that they want to see the end of the human race?
Are people pawning their children off to somebody else to raise when they send them to school when they reach age 5? Must we all home school in order to really be parents???
I can’t believe the close mindedness out there.
I can’t imagine that any working person would be jealous of THIS. I really can’t.
Wow, there’s a lot of hate around that place huh?
I also think the author in question has a rather uneducated view of us feminists… ;)
Reading those lame comments makes me search for my outer STFU, too.
Haha, great post. There will always be something for other people to bitch about, eh?
I was going to ask the same thing as Amy; I don’t read PD alot, but when I do, there are so many freakin’ crazies over there?! Where do they come from?
Oh, by the way, love the haircut.
I think more than any of this is why do women need validation from other women? I personally don’t care what anyone thinks, in the end it is only what I think is best for my child that matters. No other woman knows my son like I do.
You said it Linda. WTF????
This debate will rage on until some bizarre climate-based ice age extinguishes us all. Humans are protective, egocentric, and there will always be people disagreeing about what defines “maternal,” or “paternal.” It’s a slippery, slippery topic.
Oooh – the brilliant Swistle beat me to it. No one berates parents for sending their kids to school or says they’re “being raised by the school system.”
My older son will be in first grade in the fall. Someone actually said to me, “oh good, at least he won’t have to go to daycare any more.”
Because all-day first grade is SO different from the all-day kindergarten through the daycare. Riiiiiight.
Everytime this topic comes up I go to my very friendly charlie brown teacher place where all I hear/read sounds like “wah-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wah” and not to be rude but when Rachel who made out with Puck on the Real World was added to the ParentDish I decided that was the last day for ParentDish in my reader. Seriously…she’s going to tell ME anything. She made out with smelly, gross, spitting on people, picking on the guy with aids PUCK…you just can’t rebound from there with me.
So, listen. I don’t have kids so I can’t relate on a certain level, but I’ve done enough infant-sitting to know that if I ever did have kids, I’d have to work just to save my sanity, just to save my adulthood. I think working parents CAN AND DO raise their children every bit as well as stay-at-home parents. You know how I know? Because my mother worked full time (and got a master’s degree!) and still somehow managed to raise my sister and I just fine. She worked because she had no choice. I mean, what, she’s going to let us starve? Please. Oh, and the idea that you shouldn’t have kids if you can’t stay home with them full time is so incredibly elitist that it leaves me breathless.
PS. that rant was in my head and directed at the horrible commenters on PD, not at anyone here. So in essence, I agree with you, Linda.
I agree with Cass. This is Republican Rachel talking. Consider the source.
Okay, now that we’ve gotten that out there, I will say I hate hate hate when this topic comes up. It’s the most tedious, boring, self-loathing subject out there. I may be one of the mythical creatures to whom you allude – I rarely think about this subject. Maybe it’s because I work from home. Maybe it’s because I know I have to work in order to live where I live. Maybe it’s because I just had my 6th (!) miscarriage and am just grateful I have a kid at all. I don’t know. But women are the worst at putting their sisters down. Do what makes you happy. Some days I wish I didn’t work. Some days I wish my kid was at day care. Some days I wish I was at the spa. But most days, I get up and do what I have to do, and just love my kid and love my life and try not to worry what everyone else is doing. Now THAT’s the Real World.
What I see is this:
Both sides (the irrational peeps on both sides, that is) are desperately trying to rationalize their own decision by making the other side feel crappy, therefore THEY WIN. HOORAY. It’s a petty, stupid argument, and I’m so tired of hearing about it. Personally, I think BOTH sides are equally shitty to each other, and I say this with relative objectivity, as I’m not a parent.
I actually didn’t mind Rachel Campos-Duffy’s post (and I usually think she’s a neo-conservative nitwit, honestly), as she admits that the choice SHE made was the right one for her, and she’s sick of SAHMs complaining about it. Eh, good for her. Although speaking to the PD crowd, it’s almost laughable to think she wouldn’t get a “HOLLA! LOL!” from every single poster in response.
It’s just fucking dumb. The whole thing is dumb. And probably what I hate the most is that when these things are brought up in a forum where a working mom complains about it, all of the commenters start screeching about how STUPID SAHMs are, how ABSURD it is for them to stay at home and how WORKING IS THE ONLY WAY. It’s like no one listens to what they’ve just been complaining about, and they resort to the same name-calling and pettiness they just ranted about.
I’m tired of it, man. And I’m not even a parent. Like, everyone go off and do your thing and stop writing books about why YOUR choice is better, why women MUST do this or that.
It makes me laugh that anyone even still talks about it, because YOU CANNOT WIN AT INTERNET. FOR THE BAZILLIONTH TIME.
Actually, some people do berate parents for sending their children to school. They should be home schooled, don’cha know.
I don’t know who decided that parents should be with their kids every fucking second of every fucking day. I think kids need a break from us, just as much as we need a break from them.
Oh, and also, why when the dad takes care of the kids is it called “babysitting”. What the fuck?
You know, I feel conflicted on this topic (not on The Crazy, that clearly sucks balls), because I DO enjoy reading about individual parents and how they struggle or don’t struggle with life balance. I find it interesting, as long as they don’t crap all over everyone else in the process.
So, I guess I’m NOT one of those people who plugs my ears, all “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” everytime it comes up? And I DO wish we could talk more about it? Without the crazy?
I don’t know. I think it could be because I’m pretty sure I fall under the category of Mom Who is 100% Happy With My Choices.
Um, at least about working outside the home. In other areas of my life, uh, OOPS on the whole Good Choices thing.
(Also, you can add Vermont — usually chilly, super northern VERMONT — to the list of places currently warmer than Seattle. It’s BLAZING here right now.)
My main issue with this debate is that it really isn’t your business. Why I do the things I do doesn’t concern you. I KNOW it’s a pretty radical concept but if it doesn’t concern you… I find it rude when people ask me. It makes me feel like I need to justify my life choices. I don’t answer them. I WANT to tell them to mind their fucking businesses but I don’t.
PS When I say you it’s people in general.
My mom was a stay at home mom. She didn’t give a flying fuck about me. She wasn’t there for me, she was there to keep a clean house!
It’s funny because when you hear the term “stay at home mother” you think of someone welcoming their child home, warm cookies and milk, asking how your day was …
maybe even … SPENDING TIME WITH THE CHILD.
I would get told to clean or to be quiet while she was watching her show.
I think the whole debate on working vs. non-working parent is completely stupid. What matters is the use of the time you have and what KIND of parent you are. Just because someone is in the house, doesn’t make them a better parent!
I’d like to know what people used to do before day care.
Looks into the wayback machine……..
Here’s little Jawa playing in the fire in the cave while mom and dad are out hunting up some mammoth.
Here’s little Mara wandering by the stream, looking for snails, or fish, or some other grub.
1000 years later:
Here’s little Johnny working in the fields, what’d you say? Where is dad? About three acres over plowing the field.
Here’s little Mary tending the baby while mom does laundry by hand. Put honey on the babies fingers and give him a feather Mary, he’ll be amused for hours.
Flash forward to today.
Here’s little Johnny, in daycare, with an average of 4 kids per adult, coloring, eating three meals and snacks, taking a nap and playing with his sister Mary who is starting school next year, and spending 7 hours a day reading, writing, and learning the things that they will need to know to be able to support their kids. AND going home with mommy and daddy who play with them every night, tuck them in and give them an allowance.
My point being, in case you can’t read through the sarcasm, kids get along just fine without an adult hovering over them. And they get along even better when their parents make the effort to know what their kids are doing, not to necessarily interfere, but to let them figure out how to be their own company.
In 100 years, the fight will be that mommies are staying home with their kids instead of working. Are our kids better adults because their every waking moment is planned for them? Or we have guided their every thought? Or that they don’t know how to amuse themselves because they’ve been coddled all their lives and now their imaginations are broken?
Get away from your kids once in awhile, let them develop their own independence, and remember in the end, if mom and dad are happy, the kids will be too.
The thing that always gets me… do these people think that, say, pioneer women sat home all day, making educational crafts with their kids and attending playgroups? Or what about, you know, non-middle-class women in the late 1800s, working in mills and factories? I think it’s hilarious that people think women working is a new thing. And I think it’s troubling, what this attitude says about the “right” of working-class people to have children.
i work. i like it.
there are people who will judge me. they can go f%^k themselves.
that is all
:)
Don’t you just wonder if these people are this way about *everything?* My personal opinion is that they are because they are so freaking unhappy. They must throw huge fits right in the grocery store if someone makes their own decision to buy Tide instead of Cheer. I bet they fight with their neighbors over lawn height and with their own spouses over who should be on top. They make me happy that I’m not THAT judgemental of a person. Bitchy, yes, but not judgemental.
Are we still talking about it? Nope.
The people who are obsessed with the subject are invariably neoconservative hausfraus with holier-than-thou complexes who live to inflict their mores on everything that breathes. Sadly for them, their reign of error, largely enabled by the Bush administration and its catering to the religious right, will soon be over.
Oy I hate this conversation with fiery passion of a thousand suns because I think the SAHMs are mean spirited and make working moms feel like crap. And I think the working moms are mean spirited and make the SAHMs feel like crap. Holy crap WHO F***ing cares?!??!
I work. FULL TIME. My kid tells me he LOVES me, not a nanny or our daycare provider. He cries for me when he is has fallen down, is sick or is hurting in some way. My kid thinks the sun rises and sets over ME. I am NOT delusional about this, IT is fact.
I cared for myself & held that baby inside of me for darn near 10 months (I was 14 days late…), labored and delivered that child over a two day span, nursed that baby come hell or high water for TWENTY months (there is more but let’s just take a breath and stop there – the nursing part happened while I worked FORTY hours a week and came home to be Mommy without so much as a moment of complaint on this subject because I LOVED EVERY MOMENT OF IT!) so if any one tells me I am a bad mommy for working… well they can kiss my rump.
I work because I like it and I am a better mommy for it. I have watched enough Super Nanny shows to know that just because you stay at home you are not a GREAT mommy. Oh glory be you are a human being just like me with failings and strengths and we should all just learn to embrace (LOVE?) one another and the differences we have in our lives.
AND most of all support the choice each person has to make in this world because if we were all the same holy crap STAB me in the eye NOW! HALP, still talking over here too!!!
PS: if only there was a way to deposit cat-chewed string cheese in the Parent Dish comment thread! No words, just the cheese. Even better, regurgitated cat chewed string cheese. Maybe someone can get to work on this project.
*bangs head on keyboard*
For the love of Pete! When will parents start backing each other up instead of critiquing each other all to hell?
We are all hard enough on OURSELVES. We don’t need people who do not know us or our individual situations dumping crap on our heads.
*Steps off of soapbox*
I am so sorry you have a gig that requires you to read the opinions of people who need to STFU about how I raise my kid, or how they raise theirs kids, or how you raise your kids. Maybe the money you make isn’t sufficient compensation for the heightened rage and exposure to idiocy? I know my happiness has improved greatly since I stopped reading parenting forums, ceased feeling angry and guilty, and started concentrating on raising a happy, healthy, smart, funny kid the best way I know how.
Don’t tell those freaks, because they’d never believe it, but my daughter is NOT a ticking time bomb despite being raised by a single mom who works full time, but is in fact, pretty awesome and cool. And I don’t have to go around swinging my parenting dick and berating others to prove it to myself, either.
I should say for ass-covering purposes that ParentDish does not require me to read or care about comments on my posts or anyone else’s, and it’s clearly my own problem for getting riled about something that shouldn’t be surprising in the least (and yet why does it still shock me EVERY SINGLE TIME?).
Aside from this entire conversation (because as a non parent…I am just going to keep my mouth closed and opinions to myself) I’d like to point out and compliment the fact that your website offers mom’s from all different walks of life to find a common ground and discuss (not argue) their parenting choices. I’m sure you make a lot of mom’s grateful to have somewhere they won’t be attacked but still be able to express themselves.
Ahhh, let it go Sundry; similar to discussing politics or religion, no one’s going to win this always-repeated argument.
I think that you’re (similar to me) going stir-crazy due to this CRAP-TASTIC WEATHER right now. Discussions and blog-commenters seem even worse while we’re all lamenting our lost summertime and suffering from extended cabin fever and vitamin-D deficiency.
Hang in there. Blog about the weather so the rest of your Seattle-area commenters have a unified place to come and vent!
Linda, I think I love you :) In a totally non-creepy way of course!
As a non-mother who works outside the home, I am jealous of stay-at-home non-mothers. I’m not sure how having kids would alter the equation, but I’m pretty sure it would still boil down to being jealous of people who have the wherewithal and circumstances to do whatever they want, to be free to stay home (working for pay or not) or to work outside the home.
I am definitely tired of our weather this summer.
I can’t remember if I ever posted this, or just thought it, but I think one reason SAHMothers get so freaked out about this issue is that if women that work outside the home are raising their kids AND working outside the home, then what are the SAHM’s doing except slacking.
Linda, was your beef with Rachel for posting about it or the commenters for commenting? I didn’t see the comments, once I saw there were like 53 or something it was too depressing to contemplate.
I have said it one million times in the last three years and I will say it one million more – it is freaking HARD no matter how you do it. It’s expensive, and hard and some days beats the shit out of you and hard and HARD and it’s hard! to raise children but it’s ultimately rewarding, however you do it, or I guess we wouldn’t be doing it at all.
i work outside the home while my three baby triplets are in daycare because i have no choice. but believe me, i wouldnt’ have it any other way. i dont’ want to be a sahm, esp to three demanding little beasts! i love ‘em, but for my mental health (and believe me, they get more one on one attention and socialization at daycare than they do at home with just me) i need to get out of the house every day and go to work.
plus, otherwise we’d have to live in a cardboard box.
ps sorry ’bout the misplaced apostrophes.
Nothing against Rachel — to be honest, I only skimmed the post, I just got all crazy in the head and decided to go sifting through the comments (the reason I even noticed it was because it showed up on the ‘recent comments’ link in the sidebar).
Jennifer: blog about the weather, huh? Here you go: THIS WEATHER FUCKING SUCKS HAIRY WILDEBEEST DICK. Ah, I know *I* feel better!
I love my kid to distraction. That said, I’m not really sure how our culture got to this overheated place regarding all child rearing decisions. (Breast feeding, Circumcision, Vaccinations, all HUGE people losing-their-minds-and-resorting-to-personal-insults argument starters). Really, wtf. They are kids and there are a million and one ways to raise them. Chill the f%^* out.
Oh, and we can all rejoice that the first commenter isn’t breeding!
About the weather: WORD WORD WORD! SAY IT! How badly can it suck? What will we say when it’s still SUCKING in July?!?!?!?!?!?!
I’m going to go guzzle my vitamin D drops now!
MEP – “And I don’t have to go around swinging my parenting dick and berating others to prove it to myself, either.”…That is just awesome.
This, along with breastfeeding arguments just make my eyes bleed when reading them on parenting sites.
And I think PD hired Rachel only to stir up shit over there because she never, ever posts anything that is not totally judgemental or fodder for other-kinds-of-parenting bashing.
OHMYDEARLORD.
I would love to say I thoroughly read and contemplated all comments on both Rachel and your posts, but in reality, my head exploded after, like, four.
(Although Swistle cracked me up, pawning her kids on the school system like that. SLACKER.)
I think Rachel comes close to it when she says: “Look, there are some real perks to being a SAHM that even we SAHMs are afraid to admit to, lest someone accuse us of being lazy, ungrateful, or lacking in ambition for temporarily dropping out of the rat race to raise kids.”
My SAHM dirty little secret is that for me it is a lot easier than working and parenting would be. And I am kind of a lazy person. So what?
All I know is I am a woman who holds a full time job, is single, and has a lovely (most of the time…) 2yo at home. Don’t people understand it takes a villiage to raise a child? I think choosing to work/stay at home is completely personal and is based on your current life situation, but one does not trump the other at ALL. It is what it is. As long as everyone keeps level heads, sets good examples, and makes the best of their life situations the world would be a better place.
Great post…I can understand your frustrations completely!!
(is that two cents, or ten? hehe)
I stay home. I like it. I also work from home, more than part-time, and I like that, too.
Sometimes I wish I could get dressed up and go do work in an office like a “real” writer/editor. Sometimes I wish I could blow off work and take my kid to the zoo on a random Tuesday like a “real” SAHM.
Sometimes I wish I could be anywhere in the world but stuck in the playroom for hours on end with my kid. Sometimes I have to go away for work and I miss him so much I feel like my insides are dying.
I could never see any of this mommy war bullshit in black and white, because it isn’t. I’m about as happy with MY CHOICES as I think anyone can be, and still. Not black and white, no one-size-fits-all, and at the end of the day I am waaaaay too exhausted to give a flying fuck what anyone else does.
(I’m also hoping that after the birth of our second child I will be too exhausted to give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks of what I do. I have big dreams! Aim high!)
Man, Parent Dish is second only to You Tube for the batshit loco comments. Talk about bringing the crazy.
In situations like that, I often have to breathe deep and remember this (terribly un-PC) truism: “Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”
I think both sides get the shaft: the SAHMs get belittled for slacking and the working (outside the home) moms get told they’re not raising their own children. I think this leads to all moms (or, say, 98%) having a hint of doubt that they’re doing the wrong thing, which leads to defensive comments disparaging others’ choices, and that goes for both sides.
I plan to stay at home when I have kids, and I have had a lot of otherwise very intelligent women peers tell me that that would be a waste of my college education. Thus I tend to bristle when I read that people think it’s only the SAHMs being unfair here, because in my experience people on both sides of the issue can be obnoxious.
I am so over this shit, over Hirschman, over Warner, over Caitlin Flannigan. I’ve been a mom for 17 years and played every one of the roles debated. I don’t want to talk about it anymore.
BUT I understand why it keeps constantly getting debated, because there are a lot of moms who haven’t been doing it for 17 years. There are new generations of moms trying to figure it out for themselves. I think part of working it out is debating it. However for some people it’s hard to debate and ultimately respect other’s choices. Instead they want to accuse and make themselves feel secure in their own decision by demeaning someone else’s.
In short, it’s a debate that will never go away, because it’s part of our maturation of women and mothers to think about it.
Sundry: I *heart* you but I HATE Parent Dish with a burning passion. I swear, all you do is hear the SAME stuff (and craziness) over and over and over.
To all of the commenters who compared motherhood to 100 years ago…..BRILLIANT! My mom worked and so did BOTH of my GRANDMOTHERS! And our family survived!
Both my parents were full-time workers so from a really young age I was always in daycare. I used to get jealous when my parents weren’t there to pick me up from school (the daycare bus did that) and other kids’ parents were, but at the same time, I’d travelled to many countries as a youngster, lived in a decent house, got to have piano lessons etc. because my parents worked hard to be able to afford all this. I have always lived comfortably, was never neglected and grew up to be a (in my opinion heh) well educated, well adjusted individual. I didn’t end up being raised by a pack of spider monkeys because my parents worked.
I say file it away. I’m not a parent and even this topic makes me crazy. You KNOW this is something that will never change, and as long as you are doing what’s right for YOUR family, then who cares what others think!
Dude, PD seems to be more trouble than it’s worth. I’m a big believer in the following two cliches: the grass is always greener and to each her own.
What I RILLY want to comment on is your lastest twitter. Too bad there’s not a niche market for poop shrapnel – it sounds like you’d be up to your ears in gold and diamonds with all that you’ve dislodged.
Yeah, this was an ugly topic, but did you read the comments on the story about the vegans who starved their kid. Yeesh. If you haven’t, don’t do it!
I pretty much only read your and Roger’s posts. His comments get pretty crazy, too, but there are generally fewer of them.
My mom worked as my brother and I were growing up. In fact, my mom told me that she went home from work one day, popped out a kid, then went back to work soon after. (Not in those words exactly, I just embellished.) Back in the mid-70s she was was looked down on by her coworkers. ‘Why aren’t you staying at home???’ they would all shout telepathetically.
We had a babysitter and she was absolutely wonderful. I think the fact that my parents both worked set a great example for my brother and me. My dad still had time to read The Jumblies to us at bedtime and my mom still had time to take us to movies and museums on weekends.
Anyway, I think we turned out alright. We’re a little loopy sometimes, but I don’t think that’s because my mom didn’t stay at home.
By the by, I went to school with Linda Hirshman’s daughter. They had a really cool house.
I am a SAHM because it is what I want to do. I gave up my career, and although I sometimes have regrets, I think I made the right choice for my family and for my own happiness. I personally could care less whether the mom next door decides to work outside the home or not.
But, I am truly sick of reading about how my children won’t have a work ethic and will grow up spoiled. Please explain that to me? I shouldn’t have read PD because my favorite comment was the one that said that at least working moms are contributing to society. Well that sucks! Not only are my kids screwed, but apparently I am not a productive citizen either.
How about everyone STFU! There are aspects of being female that are just shitty . . . we have the burden of being pulled in two different directions, careers and mothering. It is an emotionally exhausting inner struggle that I will probably have for most of my adult life.
Linda,
Whatever you do, never ever EVER STFU, please.
: )
Carrie
It’s O.K. Linda, I am sure you have many more years to talk about this. ;)
I’m not planning any kids and I’m for more adoption among families. That’s where the line between me and the first commenter (BOO!) is drawn. Geez. I went to pre-school and day care.. I went to school.. Good Lord I’m in freaking college and I talk to my mother EVERY DAY MULTIPLE TIMES. I can’t even tell you the name of my day care providers. I barely remember those years.
Hello! Is it bad? No. My Mother and Father had to work so that they could afford to give me the life I’ve had. I’ve been VERY lucky and I’m thankful. Working parents are NOT a bad thing.. if it was possible for all mothers to spend as much time at home with children that they wanted, It’d be a great world. Truth be told.. the economy will NEVER be that good second.. I don’t know if I could spend a week with a baby without going crazy.
Having children isn’t always a choice! I was blessed with the most wonderful “accident” at not the most optimal time in my husband’s and my career. As a result, we both HAVE TO WORK in order to pay the bills an cloth and diaper this child. Yeah, yeah, we could sacrifice and live on generic mac and cheese and drive one car and not have cable, but c’mon, let’s be realistic! We choose the best life possible, and FOR US, that means both working, and send our child to daycare. life isn’t always the best laid plans. Even if we had plans, I love my daughter and I love my job. I would prefer to have BOTH!
and let me add, whichever way you choose or you are dealt, do it in the happiest, most joyful manner, and then, more power to ya! Life is about making the best of it. Making the best isn’t the same for every person!
Okay– I am going to admit two things:
1. I didn’t read all the comments, because the first one irritated me and,
2. I don’t have kids.
That said: How dare anyone on earth be critical of someone else’s life choices and HOW DARE someone make judgements about how people raise their children. ACCCKk- that just sets me free.
Let’s not forget those Texas cult mothers who are all batshit crazy SAHMs! And if your mother was Dr. Laura wouldn’t you want her to go to work? Gah….
The debate is tiresome but also good because it shows that many people are passionate about doing what’s right for kids, not just their own but all kids. I am for asking the question over and over again, which are the best methods for raising the next generations? There are so many problems our world faces, these kids need the best start they can get.
There are parents who stay home – they don’t work and live on welfare, they might be doing drugs in the bedroom with the kids in the house, or they sleep all day and “forget” to get up…but they are home with the kids…
Are these good parents too?
I work because I believe that it makes me a better person and a better mom. And the time that I spend with my children is 100% about them.
I am so excited that I discovered your blog!(Always the last one to the party.) I got it from the “recommended feeds” section on google reader, and spent an hour going back through old posts. Anyway, you are so fun to read and your boys are freakin’ adorable. I’ll be a regular.
I’m going to ignore that first comment (and, well, all of them) and say Linda, I’d kiss you on both cheeks (and totally not in a gay way, though there’s nothing wrong with that) and say THANK YOU JEEBUS if I could.
Yes, please, can we all just shut the f*&$ up and get on with our very diverse lives? I, for one, both HAVE to work and NEED to work full-time which are two different things. I make it work. My kids are happy. I’m happy. I love my kids and I like my job. I like health insurance and pension plans. I like a roof over my head. I’m “doing it for the children” after all.
I’m the one raising them even if we’re not staring each other down 24/7 (which, frankly could get ugly). Haters can’t mind their own business because they have no lives but ours. And I certainly never heed the advice of non-parents. Walk a mile in my shoes (though I may have just stepped in something kinda nasty, so proceed with caution) and THEN spout off. Come meet my smart creative children and THEN tell me I’m doing something wrong.
Have a lovely weekend with your adorable kids that other people are raising for you! (Really, how do I get on that list? I seriously need a vacation in my own house. Alone.)
Here’s the thing about it that really gets me, and my apologies if I missed a similar comment in skimming:
Why is it just women? Why do we never hear about, say, the guilt of Dads who work outside the home? Why is there no “Working Father” magazine?
These silly arguments set back feminism, to me, not just because they basically demean women for making their own choices, but because they shift the focus away from men and the goal of equal, gender-less parenting. It isn’t JUST women who make these decisions, and it isn’t JUST women who make babies, for that matter.
Grr.
Happy place happy place. :)
APPLAUSE!!
YES! Fay, that is totally the only thing that comes to mind every time this argument comes up. “Wither the SAHD?”
Well, that and STFU, haters.
werd.
Honestly, I think that *most* people are reasonable about it. But those that aren’t are the most vocal, it seems, so they’re the ones keeping the debate going.
Note to the most vocal: YOU WILL NOT CHANGE ANYONE’S MIND.
Plus? My kids go to an in-home daycare run by a mother-daughter team. The babysitters are like an aunt and grandma to my kids. They love their babysitters. My five-month old lights up like a chandelier when she sees her Nana. If we’re away from the sitters for a few days more than usual, my son starts asking when he’s going back. They’re just more “family” for the kids to grow up with. I see no harm in exposing them to play time with other kids and the love and attention of other adults while I work to make money for bills. Because it’s either that or Teh Welfare and I doubt the haters would really like me siphoning off some of their hard earned paychecks for my breeding ways.
Linda, please don’t STFU. I would go through withdrawal.
I’d like to say this:
Both my parents worked from as far back as I can remember.
They successfully raised 2 children. My brother, who is 30, never went on some juvenile delinquent tirade and knocked over a 7-11. He did go on to college, become an accountant, and has travelled the world over.
I’m 25 and while I enjoyed drinking from my 18th to 22nd years, I eventually grew the hell up and realized I’m literally drinking money, of which I had very little. I, too, am a college graduate and teach high schoolers about Geography and History. I participate in numerous charities and this year will be the 3rd presidential election in which I’ve participated.
My point? Both parents can work and raise children who are productive members of our society. Any asshole who touts about how important it is for a parent to stay at home needs to get a damn clue. It’s about the time you spend with your kids. Make it quality, teach lessons, do flash cards…whatever.
As a side note: with the price of EVERYTHING rising, it’s a good thing there’s a lot of double-income families out there. Shit.
Keep on trucking! You’re doing an amazing job and I’m glad you share the ups and downs with us. I don’t even have kids (and God knows, I probably should NEVER have kids), but I enjoy your stories!
I’d like to say this:
Both my parents worked from as far back as I can remember.
They successfully raised 2 children. My brother, who is 30, never went on some juvenile delinquent tirade and knocked over a 7-11. He did go on to college, become an accountant, and has travelled the world over.
I’m 25 and while I enjoyed drinking from my 18th to 22nd years, I eventually grew the hell up and realized I’m literally drinking money, of which I had very little. I, too, am a college graduate and teach high schoolers about Geography and History. I participate in numerous charities and this year will be the 3rd presidential election in which I’ve participated.
My point? Both parents can work and raise children who are productive members of our society. Any asshole who touts about how important it is for a parent to stay at home needs to get a damn clue. It’s about the time you spend with your kids. Make it quality, teach lessons, do flash cards…whatever.
As a side note: with the price of EVERYTHING rising, it’s a good thing there’s a lot of double-income families out there. Shit.
Keep on trucking! You’re doing an amazing job and I’m glad you share the ups and downs with us. I don’t even have kids (and God knows, I probably should NEVER have kids), but I enjoy your stories!
I believe it truly takes a village. And is up to the parents to make sure that village is as safe as reality will allow. To expect one person to take care of children all the time 24/7 for 18 years is unrealistic. Not to mention a soul stealing process. The more we can derive from the world around us and pump back into our families the better we all are.
just my humble opinion.
I am currently having a stay-at-home vs. go-back-to-work-already debate raging in my own head. Shall I take care of my kids myself, all the time? Or shall I feed and clothe them? Choices, choices.
I don’t understand this belief that working parents are somehow farming their children out to other people to be raised.
There are approximately 168 hours in a week. Most kids are in daycare for what, 40-50 of those hours? Aren’t the parents still spending the majority of the remaining hours actively responsible for their kids? It’s not like raising the little guys is restricted to a 40-hour workweek.
I had no idea this was such a hot topic! I don’t have kids, and don’t really want them (I’m a horribly impatient person and I don’t think I’m mom-material! Plus I think all the “Jon & Kate Plus 8″ families in the world more than make up for my lack of contribution to the population boom.) but that doesn’t give me the right to tell parents how to raise their kids. I will admit that there are times that I really want to tell some ignorant parent “don’t just sit there, DO something” when their child is screaming on the train at 1 a.m., but (a) it’s not like I would know what to do myself and (b) I don’t like having my hair pulled by angry sleep-deprived women. As for my upbringing, my parents had the IDEAL situation… they owned their own business and worked from home. Best of both worlds if you ask me! IF by some crazy act of God I change my mind and decide to reproduce, this would be my goal.
I can’t believe some people would choose to have children and then would have the audacity to ever let them out of their sight! You think you can leave that child with your sister while you use the bathroom?? What nerve! Take responsibility for your choice! Your days of using the bathroom unaccompanied are over!
You! Must be the only presence in YOUR child’s life!
*cough* I don’t know if I could’ve made it more sarcastic…
The recurring argument just baffles me. Myself and every. single. one. of my friends were raised by mothers and fathers that worked outside of the home, and we’re all happy, healthy, productive members of society.
This applies to WAY more than the SAHP/working parent issue, but holy crap, a lot of people sure do have a hard time wrapping their tiny little heads around the concept that hey, just because a certain decision or choice was right for them, that doesn’t mean EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET should make the same damn choice.
I worked outside the home for a year and put my 1-year old in daycare (now he’s 2.5 and is JUST FINE, thank ye!). Now I’m back to being a SAHMama with another kid on the way. For me, when I’m working, I always wish I was at home with my kid, and when I’m not, I think of how nice it’d be to have a job outside the home.
My toddler learned so much in daycare! Socializing, sharing, and learning from other adults and kids are PRICELESS (unless they’re learning how to pick their nose or something, of course). I’m grateful for the year we had our son in outside care. And now I’m happy to be staying at home again. ONE IS NOT BETTER THAN THE OTHER. It’s all about what works for each unique family.
SUCKADICK, people. Jesus. CAN YOU HEAR MY EYES ROLLING?
Ouch. They’re stuck.
Ok, but seriously? What does it matter WHO the kid’s with all day as long as that person loves them and takes care of them? If that’s Mom, then great, having Mom around all day is fantastic. If that’s Dad, then great, having Dad around all day is fantastic, too. But ya know what? If it’s Ms. Jones from the daycare who loves your kid and takes care of your kid then how can that be bad???
For crap’s sake, what can be bad about spending all day with Ms. Jones who loves me and then getting picked up by, and spending all night with, Mom and Dad who, by gosh and by gum, love me too???
How about this? Everyone do what’s right for them, stop worrying about keeping up with the Joneses, be confident in your decisions, and lead a life that makes you happy.
And while we’re all at it, how about the fact that this discussion generally gets limited to women. Why don’t we band together with all this catty energy and channel IT into something more productive, like equal societal pressure for both parents.
I hate when blog posts, comments or articles make me question my parenting decisions. I’m confident my decision to stay home full time with my kids was the right choice for my family. It’s not always fun, it’s not always rewarding, but I still think it is what works for us. Despite this, reading articles on the working mom v. stay-home mom debate make me question my decision. Is it really a good idea for all of my degrees to be sitting in a box in my closet gathering dust? I wish I had the self confidance to know without a doubt I made the right choice. Until I find that utopia, I agree with you Linda, STFU on the debate.
That being said, perhaps what I dislike more than reading about the working mom v. stay-home mom debate is the comments that follow saying, “to each their own,” “who are we to judge,” “what works for one family doesn’t always work for another.” Of course these comments are dead on, but they’re not realistic. I think most people really feel their parenting decisions are the right ones — and everyone judges. I hate the little judgemental voice in my head that sounds off occassionally when I hear another Mom disciplining their kid, or talking about feeding issues, or voicing sleeping concerns. Luckily, being a parent has taught me to keep the little voice where it belongs, in my head. I think good moms learn to be good listeners. That’s really what other Moms need from us. We don’t need advice or critiques — we just need a nice shoulder to cry on and a little reassurance that we’re doing our best.
Yeah, Yawn. Ugh, this is such an old argument (not to mention an old book referenced in her post…) I blogged about it back in June 2006 when the book was published and pretty much summed up my feelings about this particular topic. I’m a SAHM and it is exactly what I want to do – but sometimes it fucking sucks. Like this week, for example. But all jobs blow at one time or another, right? Interestingly enough, my three best friends in the world are moms who work outside the home. I hate the mommy war thing. My best friend and I started a blog on the premise of the mommy wars being a myth (now if only we could keep up with the blog -she works full time and I’m at home full time and wouldn’t you know it, neither of us has time to properly blog!!! Maybe if anyone was reading it we’d be more apt to post…so not to pimp, but well – to pimp – here’s the link. The first couple of posts are our perspectives on mommy war-hood…
http://winecoloredglasses.blogspot.com/
Sundry – I LOVE YOUR BLOG. It is the single most shared link I’ve ever passed on. Love It.
Clearly, each person needs to make their own choice for themselves on this issue. Everyone else can stay out of it!
You know, a mother that stays home doesn’t necessarily spend her time at home interacting with her kids. My mom stayed home on our hobby farm and did her own thing most of the time (gardening, taking care of our small complement of animals, cooking, etc.) Now that we’re grown up, she’s fond of saying, “You kids were great when you were little, I NEVER saw you.” and it’s true – we pretty much occupied ourselves, and on weekends our grandmother would come stay and do stuff with us.
I do remember thinking it was weird that there were a couple of kids that didn’t have moms that stayed home, but it was a rural farming community and therefore the family livelihood was the home.
Being a parent, just like being a child or a wife or a partner or a sister, doesn’t come with some set of strict and stringent rules. The only for sure thing about being a parent is that when you think you know everything, YOU ARE WRONG. Hell, when you think you know anything, you are wrong. You know nothing.
Opinions are opinions are opinions are opinions. They aren’t fact. People say inflammatory things for one reason only. They want attention.
The mightier than though sound offs on this “issue” are beginning to make me wonder when the great big bible thumping will begin or when someone is going to say that the great thing about being a SAHM is that they get to dust off their gun cabinet every Thursday afternoon. Times change. Situations change. Mortgage rates change. We’re all trying to do the best we can by our offspring. Anyone suggesting otherwise to a mother is wrong.
Well, I know I’m unpopular, but I would have to agree that those of us who work and selfishly chose to have a family as well should not pawn our children off on a day care/pre-school where they are exposed to crucial socialization, creative projects and other beneficial learning issues that I might not be creative enough to provide even if I were not a full-time working mom. Personally, I just leave them in a crate with the dogs so they can all lick themselves during the day and not bother me when I get home!
….you won’t win over the closed minded, Sundry. But thanks for showing us you care!
(1 home, 2 kids, and 2 incomes….but doing great!)
The first poster was right about one thing. Her opinion does not matter, especially since she is opposed to “breeding.” That’s an interesting way to look at it.
Maybe I should go on PD and spill my guts about being a non-working (for now) single mother who sends her oldest child to school
The first poster was right about one thing. Her opinion does not matter, especially since she is opposed to “breeding.” That’s an interesting way to look at it.
Maybe I should go on PD and spill my guts about being a non-working (for now) single mother who sends her oldest child to school AND sends the baby to daycare. I bet that would make for some interesting reactions.
Then I would take massive delight in telling them the reasons WHY which are beyond valid and watch them crawl away with theirs tails between their legs.
And, Sundry, please don’t stop railing against the hypocrisy. Your cries for tolerance are well-appreciated. If you turned this blog into a weather report, so many people would be disappointed.
YOU, my dear, are the bomb!